SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Evan Roberts Quote
See Opportunities to Serve with SermonIndex
Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Once Saved...Always Saved???

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 | 28 | 29 | 30 | 31 | 32 | 33 | 34 | 35 | 36 | 37 | 38 | 39 | 40 | 41 | 42 | 43 | 44 | 45 | 46 | 47 | 48 | 49 | 50 | 51 | 52 | 53 | 54 | 55 | 56 | 57 | 58 | 59 | 60 | 61 | 62 | 63 | 64 | 65 | 66 | 67 | 68 | 69 | 70 | 71 | 72 | 73 | 74 | 75 | 76 | 77 | 78 | 79 | 80 | 81 | 82 | 83 | 84 | 85 | 86 | 87 Next Page )
PosterThread
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Those genuinely born of the Spirit will perservere until the end. I am not saying, nor would anyone who reads the Bible, that we should not examine ourselves to see whether we be in the faith, or that grace is a license to sin.

If the Spirit truly indwells a person, they may sin, but there will be a sorrow that leads to repentance. The problem is when people dictate how that repentance should look, or how long it should last etc. Thus producing a "self" centered life wherein all assurance or hope in Christ is determined by the weak, feeble saint who can barely read their Bible at times.

We must be brutally honest brethren, just because many have claimed to be Christians and have fallen does not mean they were, nor that we can now disregard what is taught in Scripture. Our day has seen so much poor theology, and we have invented pragmatic approaches to increase numbers. However this does not mean we judge God or His book by what we see around us. Of course decisional regeneration is a lie, and then if you combine it with telling people that they are "saved" because they prayed a prayer, or walked an aisle, you are asking for disaster both in the Church, and in the life of the person. BUT, this does not negate the true working of God within a person. What He births, He will sustain, and will cause to perservere.

Remember brethren there are tares among the wheat.


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/6/4 12:38Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Those genuinely born of the Spirit will perservere until the end. I am not saying, nor would anyone who reads the Bible, that we should not examine ourselves to see whether we be in the faith, or that grace is a license to sin.



I posted this in another tread and never received a response. It would be helpful for those who agree with the doctrine of eternal security to go through the passages what deal with falling away and explain why you do not think they apply to born-again believers. This would be more helpful than posting proof texts to support your view.

Will anyone do it? Do you need a list of verses?

 2007/6/4 12:46
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4587


 Re:

Hi roaringlamb...

Quote:
Those genuinely born of the Spirit will perservere until the end. I am not saying, nor would anyone who reads the Bible, that we should not examine ourselves to see whether we be in the faith, or that grace is a license to sin.

Yet we are tempted everyday to fall into sin. I know individuals who truly loved the Lord -- and had what appeared to be genuine born-again experiences -- but fell away after being caught up into sin. If we will automatically persevere until the end, then why did Paul admonish believers to persevere. You are stating that it becomes our first nature to not fall away. Yet the things of this world continually tempt our sinful nature on a daily basis.

I am not saying that God will condemn anyone to Hell that has suddenly committed a sin. I am saying that if a person CHOOSES to continue in that sin, rather than except the escape that the LORD provides, then that person has abandoned the faith. It seems rather clear to me that an individual who has truly had a born again experience can still possibly abandon the faith. Why? Sin is still enticing for a believer's flesh (we can ALL testify to that). But what is the end for a believer who still believes -- yet is caught up into a continual lifestyle of gross sin?

The Word is clear that someone can run ahead and abandon the faith. The Word is clear that such a person does NOT HAVE GOD (2 John 1:8-9). Can we simply dismiss such individuals as having never been saved? Perhaps "salvation" is relative in our definition. From God's eternal standpoint -- knowing the end from the beginning -- a person who perseveres to the end is saved eternally. From our limited immediate perspective, we are all saved.

I believe that it is the grace of God that draws us back to God when we fall. A person who clings to Christ after such a fall still belongs to God. I also believe that a person who willfully and knowingly walks away has squandered their inheritance. God's grace will continually work in them to repentence. However, there is a point in which they choose the gratification of their sinful nature over their relationship with God. Unless such a person returns to Him, I believe that they shall not inherit the Kingdom of God.

:-)


_________________
Christopher

 2007/6/4 13:23Profile









 Re:

It all has to do with the New Covenant promise of the Holy Spirit...I will put my spirit in you and Cause you to walk in my statutes.

Now Take the very bold proclamation of Hebrews 13:20&21
20Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

21Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.


To understanding these verses, one must understand the Key to Hebrews and Old Covenant, WHICH COULD NEVER BRING ANYONE TO IT PERFECT.

READ:
Hebrews 7:11
If therefore PERFECTION were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
Hebrews 7:19 For the law made nothing PERFECT, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God. Hebrews 10:1
For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto PERFECT.


The key to understanding the Old Testament sacrifices in their full revelation is the book of Hebrews. Hebrews 7-10 interpret the old sacrifices and priesthood in the light of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. The context of chapters 9-10 is of the better promises of the New covenant. Having just spoken of the better ministry of Christ as High Priest because He lives forever at the right hand of God. Also if perfection had been attainable under the Levitical priesthood what need would there be for another priest to arise in the order of Melchezidek. This tells us the old system wasn't perfect. Because it wasn't perfect it was only temporary, until the perfect came. Because Jesus lives forever as high priest at the right hand of God, He is the "SURETY" of the Better Covenant.(Hebrews7:22) The point is, the High Priesthood of Christ is part of God's perfect system. Because the perfect has come, He is able to save to the utmost, those who draw near to God through Him.(vs25) Because Christ is raised from the dead and lives forever, He is able to always intercede for the people of God. In the old system the high Priest could only enter once a year to intercede on the peoples behalf. So because Jesus is always able to intercede for His people, He can save them to the utmost because He is the "SURETY" of a better covenant.

To stand "SURETY" for someone means that what has been bought cannot be repossessed. For whatever short fall there is, the surety pays.

To be a surety of the better covenant which is the new covenant, means this. Jesus ensures that the promises in the covenant are made effective. Where there is no doubt that God will always keep his side of the covenant. It is our side of the covenant that needs a surety.

An llustration of this would be when one enters into a covenant with a bank. The bank always works on the basis of surety. Either you must have collateral or someone must stand surety for you. That way the amount loaned cannot fail to be repaid and re posses ion can't take place. The only time it can be repossessed is when the surety fails. Christ however cannot fail. He is a sure surety. So Christ by his intercession as High Priest ensures our obedience to God. It is by Jesus working in us to obey, that we work out our salvation. The point is that those who are joined to Christ as partakers of the new covenant are part of the covenant of promise. So both sides are covered for Jesus stands as surety before God that we keep the human side of the covenant. Jesus ensures that Go d's promises are effective in what they have promised. It is unlike the Old Covenant which is conditional. The covenant of promise depends entirely upon God for its success.

The old covenants success depended on mans obedience. But it was a failure, for man rebelled and did not obey. The remnant were an exception. But now , Jesus ensures mans obedience, to those who draw near to God through Jesus. Indeed this is the point of the New Covenant, to ensure the people of God's faithfulness. Praise God that we who trust in Christ, have such a great and mighty High Priest before the throne of God.

Now, re-read Hebrews 13:20&21. There are no "IF" in that statement. The Old Covenant was a Covenant of "if's". The New Covenant is a Covenant of God saying "I WILL". I will put my spirit in you and cause you to walk in my statutes.

Love in Christ
Katy-did
:-)

The secrets of the Lord are with those who fear Him, and He will show you His Covenant!

 2007/6/4 13:23









 Re:

Just an added note:

The promise of the Spirit in the New Covenant, is the Spirit of Life In Christ that set you free from the law of sin and death. Jesus came to set you free! He said You will know the Truth and the Truth will set you free. Shall we continue to sin that Grace may abount...GOD FORBID!!! Romans 6 explains why!

Love In Christ
Katy-did
:-)

 2007/6/4 13:43
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4587


 Re:

Hi Katy-did...

Quote:
To stand surety for someone means that what has been bought cannot be repossessed. For whatever short fall there is, the surety pays. To be a surety of the better covenant which is the new covenant, means this. Jesus ensures that the promises in the covenant are made effective. Where there is no doubt that God will always keep his side of the covenant. It is our side of the covenant that needs a surety. An illustration of this would be when one enters into a covenant with a bank. The bank always works on the basis of surety. Either you must have collateral or someone must stand surety for you. That way the amount loaned cannot fail to be repaid and re posses ion can't take place. The only time it can be repossessed is when the surety fails. Christ however cannot fail. He is a sure surety.

No one is questioning that God will repossess "salvation." God will not repossess many things (including the Earth for the time being). The flaw is that we are assuming that our "salvation" is a tangible [u]possession[/u] that the Lord gives us. The gift of God is our [u]relationship[/u] with Him -- a renewed ability to know Him and fellowship with Him. God does not repossess that ability. Our "salvation" is simply the result of our relationship with Christ.

Is it possible for someone who has once walked with God to abandon God? I would say that it is possible -- no matter how much we can not understand that. I know individuals who have knowingly forsaken their relationship with God -- that they once held so dear -- for the pleasures of sin. It is my view that the Word is extremely clear that an individual who departs the faith, runs ahead, and returns to a life of sin with not inherit the Kingdom of God.

Hebrews 10:26-30
2 John 1:8-9

:-(


_________________
Christopher

 2007/6/4 13:47Profile









 Re:

I posted this in another tread and never received a response. It would be helpful for those who agree with the doctrine of eternal security to go through the passages what deal with falling away and explain why you do not think they apply to born-again believers. This would be more helpful than posting proof texts to support your view.

Will anyone do it? Do you need a list of verses?

 2007/6/4 14:04









 Re:

no takers? as forcefully as some people argue these points one would think they readily have answer available regarding the passages about falling away. and not because they want to answer people but because they have searched this issues out for themselves before drawing their own conclusions. i hope people are not building their theology and doctrine off of neglecting scriptures they don't understand.

 2007/6/4 18:23









 Re:

sscott,

I think John summed up all your questions in this verse. One cannot lose their True Salvation. One cannot get saved and lost and saved again..it's impossible. Most who believe you can lose your salvation also believe you can get saved again. Hebrews 6 says it is impossible. People who believe they can lose thir salvation, should never say they are SAVED to begin with.

Being "enlightened by the Holy Spirit" Hebrews 6, or "having a knowledge of the truth" Hebrews 10 is not salvation. Our identification with Jesus in death and resurrection life is salvation. We're quickened when we are raised up with Christ, here and now. We receive life out of death.

Many will follow along for sometime, but Jesus also said, MY sheep hear MY voice and A strangers voice they do not hear. When we see others running after false doctrine, ask them what Galatians 2:20 means to them. Or Romans 6 or Romans 12 1&2.

Many warnings in scripture are actually for our encouragement. When we see in these last days this great apostasy and wonder how it could happen John said:


1 John 2:19
They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

We're going to be seeing more and more of this. Rather then keeping our eyes on man and what he is and isn't doing, we should keep our eyes on the Lord, and our mind in Heavenly Places In Christ. Don't let what someone else did cause you to lose your faith.

Even if you are the "only one" not following the crowd, Praise God you are hearing HIS VOICE!

Love in Christ
Katy-did
:-)

 2007/6/4 18:49
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Does anybody know what deception is?
Do you think that you can not be decived?

 2007/6/4 21:31Profile





©2002-2021 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Affiliate Disclosure | Privacy Policy