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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Once Saved...Always Saved???

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UniqueWebRev
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Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re:

Quote:

roaringlamb wrote:
Quote:
Judas Iscariot was a true follower of Jesus, and it was only at the end that he fell away.



Dear Forrest you have much insight into spiritual things and I am blessed by many things you have posted but I must ask you where in the Bible does it say Judas was a true follower of Christ?

We read these words of Christ
John 13:10 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: [b]and ye are clean, but not all.
John 13:11 For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean.[/b]



Patrick, you got me! I used a bad example to present a truly good point.

I don't usually study Judas, as he is so obviously damned.

I'll rewrite the post.

Thank you for pointing this out!!!

Blessings,

Forrest


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Forrest Anderson

 2007/6/1 22:10Profile
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 Re: Once Saved...Always Saved???

Quote:

Katy-did wrote:
Hi GrannyAnnie: The Gospel that so many miss in scripture is that we are called to the fellowship of His sufferings. It seems those who are anchored in "these" truths are the ones that know it takes that fellowship to be conformed in the first place. Once we are resolved to this truth, knowing our life now belongs to the Lord, we don't fight it. We know we are no longer a part of this world system, and what the world has to offer...The fact is, when one TOTALLY SURRENDERS their life to the Lord, they have given it completely over to the Lord. It belongs to Him now. What we lose in this world, we have a million times over in the Riches that are in Christ Jesus.
God Bless! With Love in Christ
Katy-Did! :-)




Oh, Katy,

How much I wish that this were the case.

Yet Paul in Hebrews 6 speaks specifically to this:[color=993300]Hebrews 6

1. Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2. Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3. And this will we do, if God permit.
4. For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5. And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6. If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.[/color]

Paul is stating that if one falls away, and by falling away, it is not the mere habits of the dead body that is still a part of us that is a falling away, but a going away from Christ. And to ask Christ to forgive it again is to crucify Him again.

[color=993300]Luke 9:57. And it came to pass, that, as they went in the way, a certain man said unto him, Lord, I will follow thee whithersoever thou goest.
58. And Jesus said unto him, Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.
59. And he said unto another, Follow me. But he said, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.
60. Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.
61. And another also said, Lord, I will follow thee; but let me first go bid them farewell, which are at home at my house.
62. And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.[/color]

Once Saved, Always Saved says that no matter what we do, Jesus will always take us back, no matter how far we stray.

Under this theory, one could take the mark of the Beast during the tribulation in sincere belief that one would be forgiven.

But as Hebrews shows, there is a point of no return, where if Jesus were to forgive such a betrayal, that He would have to suffer the crucifiction again.

I know that Jesus bends over backwards to keep us saved, because I have tested Him very far, yet in a way, I never entirely let go of Jesus' hand, nor He of mine, even when I was doing my worst sinning.

I sinned in ignorance, in foolishness, in fear, and because the devil tricked me well. And to a point, I enjoyed my sins. Who hasn't?

But I didn't knowingly or unknowingly turn my back on Jesus and walk away, diving into a life of sin, and deliberately and lasciviously luxuriate in sin, and teach it to others.

And there are those that were in the Church that have turned their back on Jesus, and have taught the Devil's lies, and Jesus will not take them back.

And to tell a babe in Christ that he is always safe, no matter what he does, is only going to encourage this kind of behavior.

How many souls have you told that all will be well, that are dancing with the devil, and can never come back? Will they blame you for false teaching? Will Christ?

I will not take that risk as a teacher, nor will I encourage anyone to believe that there is NOT a point for every person when Christ will become so sickened at their behavior that they are vomited out of the Church Corporate.

Once Saved, Always Saved is a lie.

The burden of teaching it be on the heads that do so.

In Christ,

Forrest


_________________
Forrest Anderson

 2007/6/1 22:17Profile









 Re:

Hi Forrest,

I know the scripture in Hebrews is used often by those who believe one can lose their salvation. Yet so few read to the very end of that chapter where it states, "we are not of those", but those who believe to the saving of the soul". I know there are different perspectives about the book of Hebrews. I believe the author was talking to Jews who were on the fence so to speak.

One thing I really would like you to look at in Hebrews, where Jesus is the "SURETY" of the New Covenant. Study what SURETY means.

In reading Hebrews, it's also good to compare the parable of the soils. Only the last one had true faith, because the Good Ground is Christ in You.. Only Christ in you can produce fruit. John 15.

Another thing to look at is the beginning of Hebrews concerning those who crossed over the Jordan into the promise land and those who did not. Those who did not “enter in” were exactly as those in Hebrews 6. Not only did they see miracles for 40 years in the wilderness, they still did not have faith to “enter in“, and they died in their sins in the wilderness. Many today hear the Gospel, sit in church all their lives, yet refuse to come out of the wilderness and cross the Jordan (the Cross= Romans 6) and enter into the Promise land (Jesus Christ). They lack "I am crucified with Christ" in their lives.

If indeed our old man has been crucified with Christ, then the Bible says that our old man died with Christ. Dead is dead. Now the promise in Romans 8:11-13, is that we are raised up with Christ a New Creation, and that the ministry of the Holy Spirit is to mortify (continually put to death) our old sin nature or old man, along with revealing Christ in You.

Look at the words “ enter in” . Now go to Hebrews 10.…we “Enter In” a new and different way, through the veil, that is to say His flesh. Here again is Romans 6...or Gal 2:20...I am crucified with Christ…no longer I but Christ in me. Also reference John 6...to eat my flesh and drink my blood is…I am Crucified with Christ. Or when Jesus said, to keep your life you will lose it, but to lose your life ….here again..“I am crucified with Christ…no longer I but Christ in me.

We have a choice here. It’s either “no longer I, but Christ“…..or it’s ….I trying to keep my salvation. Two totally opposite conflicting Gospels. Verse 21 states, I no not make VOID the GRACE of God, for if righteousness comes by keeping the law (who‘s keeping what here?) , Christ died in vain.

I find most who believe you can lose your salvation have never really obeyed Romans 6, ...to "reckon" your old man dead, and to "yield" your New Man unto Christ, and that it is now His Righteousness that dwells within. Also no obedience to Romans 12:1&2.

The truth is, life under Grace is not an easy life. True Grace is not cheap Grace. It will cost you everything. This is the Gospel. This is what Jesus taught, this is what Paul taught. No longer I but Christ.

Love in Christ
Katy-did
:-)

 2007/6/1 22:48
jimp
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Joined: 2005/6/18
Posts: 1481


 Re:

hi, there is no OSAS doctrine;it is the eternal security of the believer.It is called osas in ignorance.anyone who says that this doctrine says that you can live any way you want is also in error. what happens is your sins will find you out... if you are dead to this world and alive in Christ you still pay for the sins done in the flesh...in the flesh. i have seen this so often where a christian who is living a good life makes some bad choices(sin)and days later they are jobless,in jail,homeless,lose their family,you name it i have seen the results of sin and sometimes death.still His grace is new every morning.jimp

 2007/6/2 0:51Profile
UniqueWebRev
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Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
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 Re: Once Saved...Always Saved???

Hi Katy!

As you requested:

[color=993300]Hebrews 7:15. And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
16. Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
17. For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
18. For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
19. For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
20. And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest:
21. (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec:)
22. By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
23. And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
24. But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
25. Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
26. For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
27. Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
28. For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.[/color]

Christ is indeed OUR surety...He will never leave us, so long as we believe on Him. It is a conditional committment. We have to trust in Him. And we have to show it, by yielding to the Holy Spirit's teaching, and in due time, show fruit of that teaching.

But WE can leave Him.

WE can stop believing, stop walking the walk, turn in our tracks, go back down the narrow path, out the strait gate, and play slip and slide with all the others going to hell on the broad and easy way.

And telling a new believer that once he has believed on Jesus, he can never lose Jesus is perfectly true. Jesus will stick to us closer than a brother, but He's not going to drag us kicking and screaming the entire way to His father's throne.

That would invalidate our free will to say yes or no to the offer God makes us in Jesus.

Yes, like any adult with a baby, He's going to keep nudging us back on the the narrow path as we wander off of it, coax us along with favors and blessings, then as we grow in Him, He will begin to train us up in the way we should go. Trials will begin to come, to test the validity of our committment. And I'm sure you have noticed, the further you are along on the path, the more you get tested, because Jesus wants His Bride as perfect as possible when they enter their Glorified bodies.

But not everyone passes the trials. Some do look back, and go back, and the ones that do most easily are those that are assured that Jesus will love them no matter what!

Well, He will. But He'll love them all the way into Hell, sorrowing for the necessity of judgement, because someone, with good intentions, told them, Once Saved, Always Saved!

But we have to warn people not to betray Jesus.

How many of the people in America's churches believe the Once Saved, Always Saved Doctrine, and have Lucifer sitting in the front row, clapping and singing, and laughing at our gullibility?!!!

As I said in a post on another thread about divorce, God has divorced two nations already for faithlessness, Ephaim and Judah, and BETROTHED a third group, the Christian Church, by salvation through faith. But you know, we're not glorified yet, and we're not married yet, and God can still put us away, divorce us, for unfaithfulness.

God was perfectly willing to toss the entire 12 Tribes of Israel out, and start over again in the Mosaic Covenant with Moses, simply because God couldn't stand their whining, complaining, and ultimately, their treachery. And they only had to obey the outer Laws. They could sin all day long in their hearts and minds, and if they kept the Law, by making the proper offerings for any failures, would be considered righteous.

The above surety in Christ as our one time Passover Lamb satisfies the Law forever, and gives us OUR surety in Him as our Priest and Husband forever.

But it does so conditionally. We have to believe on Him, and act like we do!

It doesn't give us our surety in Him except by faith, to enter into the covenant, and even then, Jesus requires two things of us. We are to love God with all of our heart, mind, soul and strength, and our brothers as ourselves.

That is our walk. That is the fruit Christ wants in return for His surety of our souls. He's done His part, now He wants us to do ours.

The New Covenant is a Blood Covenant, but a covenant is a contract, and can be broken.

[color=0000FF]Elwells Theological Dictionary
Topics: Covenant.

Text: A compact or agreement between two parties binding them mutually to undertakings on each other's behalf. Theologically (used of relations between God and man) it denotes a gracious undertaking entered into by God for the benefit and blessing of man, and specifically of those men who by faith receive the promises and commit themselves to the obligations which this undertakes involves.

In the OT. *txUniformly the word used to express the covenant concept is the Hebrew berit. The original meaning of this word was probably "fetter" or "obligation," coming from a root bara, "to bind." This root does not occur as a verb in Hebrew, but it does occur in Akkadian as baru, "to bind," and appears as a noun in the Akkadian biritu, which means "bond" or "fetter." Thus a berit would originally signify a relationship between two parties wherein each bound himself to perform a certain service or duty for the other. But some scholars prefer to derive this noun from the verb bara "to eat," which occurs in II Sam. 13:6; 12:17; etc., and thus interpret it as "a meal" or "food," with reference to the sacrificial meal which the contracting parties often ate together when ratifying their agreement before the diety who was invoked as protector and guarantor of the covenant. Still others trace it from a bara meaning "to perceive" or "to determine"; hence berit would involve the basic idea of "vision.
" But neither of these explanations commends itself as being so fitting or appropriate to the basic character of a covenant as the idea of "bond" preferred by the majority of scholars.

A general characteristic of the OT berit is its unalterable and permanently binding character. The parties to a covenant obligated themselves to carry out their respective commitments under the penalty of divine retribution should they later attempt to avoid them. Usually, although not necessarily, the promise of each was supported by some sort of legal consideration or quid pro quo. But where the one party to the agreement was greatly superior to the other in power or authority, the situation was a bit different: the ruler or man of authority would in the enactment of the berit simply announce his governmental decree or constitution which he thought best to impose upon those under him, and they for their part expressed their acceptance and readiness to conform to what he had ordained. Doubtless it was true even in this type of covenant that the ruler implicitly committed himself to rule for the best interests of his people and to contrive for their protection against their foes.

But in the case of the promulgation of a covenant by God with his chosen people, this one-sided aspect of the transaction was even more apparent, since the contracting parties stood upon entirely different levels. In this case the covenant constituted a divine announcement of God's holy will to extend the benefits of his unmerited grace to men who were willing by faith to receive them, and who by entering into a personal commitment to God bound themselves to him by ties of absolute obligation. The characteristic statement of this relationship occurs in the formula "I will be their God and they shall be my people" (cf. Jer. 11:4; 24:7; 30:22; 32:38; Ezek. 11:20; 14:11; 36:28; 37:23; Zech. 8:8; etc.). This signifies that God unreservedly gives himself to his people and that they in turn give themselves to him and belong to him. Thus they are his "peculiar treasure" (segulla, Exod. 19:5; Deut. 7:6; 14:2; 26:18; Ps. 135:4; Mal. 3:17).
His motive in adopting them as his own covenant children is stated to be "lovingkindness" or "covenant-love" (hesed), a term with which berit is often associated (cf. Deut. 7:9; I Kings 8:23; Dan. 9:4). (Compare also I Sam. 20:8, where Jonathan is said to exercise hesed when he enters into his covenant relationship with David.) This presents a remarkable contrast to the motivation attributed by the heathen Semites to their gods, who were uniformly depicted as entering into covenant relations with their devotees for the purpose of extracting service and nourishment from their altars, more or less like the feudal lords of human society who extract their support from the labor of their vassals.

One very important element in God's covenant relations with Israel lay in the dual aspect of conditionality and unconditionality. Were his solemn promises, which partook of the nature of a binding oath (cf. Deut. 7:8), to be understood as capable of nonfulfillment, in case of the failure of man to live up to his obligations toward God? Or was there a sense in which God's covenant undertakings were absolutely sure of fulfillment, regardless of the unfaithfulness of man? The answer to this much-debated question seems to be: (1) that the promises made by Jehovah in the covenant of grace represent decrees which he will surely bring to pass, when conditions are ripe for their fulfillment; (2) that the personal benefit, and especially the spiritual and eternal benefit, of the divine promise will accrue only to those individuals of the covenant people of God who manifest a true and living faith (demonstrated by a godly life).
Thus the first aspect is brought out by the initial form of the covenant with Abraham in Gen. 12:1-3; there is no shadow of doubt but what God will truly make of Abram a great nation, and make his name great, and shall bless all the nations of earth through him and his posterity (cf. Gal. 3:8). This is set forth as God's plan from the very beginning; nothing shall frustrate it. On the other hand, the individual children of Abraham are to receive personal benefit only as they manifest the faith and obedience of Abraham; thus Exod. 19:5 ("Now therefore if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me....And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation"). In other words, God will see to it that his plan of redemption will be carried out in history, but he will also see to it that none partake of the eternal benefits of the covenant in violation of the demands of holiness.
No child of the covenant who presents to him a faithless and insincere heart shall be included in its blessings.

This triumphantly enduring quality of the covenant of grace is especially set forth by the prophets in the form of the "new covenant." In the classic passage on this theme (Jer. 31:31-37) the earliest phase of the covenant (that was effected at Sinai) is shown to have been temporary and provisional because of the flagrant violation of it by the Israelite nation as a whole, and because of their failure to know or acknowledge God as their personal Lord and Savior. But there is a time coming, says Jehovah, when he will put his holy law into their very hearts, so that their cordial inclination and desire will be to live according to his holy standard. Moreover he shall beget within them a sense of sonship toward himself, so that they shall have a personal knowledge and love of him that will not require artificial human teaching. Furthermore the carrying out of this redeeming purpose is stated to be as sure as the continued existence of sun, moon, and stars, or even of the foundations of heaven itself.

In the NT. The term for covenant employed in the NT is diatheke, the word used constantly in the LXX for berit. Since the ordinary Greek word for "contract" or "compact" (syntheke) implied equality on the part of the contracting parties, the Greek-speaking Jews preferred diatheke (coming from diatithemai, "to make a disposition of one's own property") in the sense of a unilateral enactment. In secular Greek this word usually meant "will" or "testament," but even classical authors like Aristophanes (Birds 439) occasionally used it of a covenant wherein one of the two parties had an overwhelming superiority over the other and could dictate his own terms. Hence the biblical diatheke signified (in a way much more specific than did berit) an arrangement made by one party with plenary power, which the other party may accept or reject but cannot alter. Johannes Behm (TDNT, II, 137) defines it as "the decree (Verfuegung) of God,
the powerful disclosure of the sovereign will of God in history whereby he constitutes the relationship, the authoritative divine ordinance (institution), which introduces a corresponding order of affairs." There is just one passage in which the more usual secular significance of "will" or "testament" appears along with the covenantal idea: Heb. 9:15-17. A legal analogy is drawn from the fact that a testator must die before his will can take effect; so also in the enactment of the Mosaic covenant there was slain a sacrificial animal, representing the atonement of Christ, and it was the blood of that victim which was sprinkled upon the people and the covenantal document itself. But even here the predominant notion in diatheke is "covenant" rather than "testament." G. L. ARCHER, JR.

See also COVENANT, THE NEW.

Bibliography. G. R. Berry, ISBE, II, 727-29; A. B. Davidson, The Theology of the OT; G. E. Mendenhall, Law and Covenant in Israel and the Ancient Near East; G. Oehler, Theology of the OT; W. Oesterly and T. H. Robinson, Hebrew Religion; G. Vos, Biblical Theology; J. Behm and G. Quell, TDNT,II, 106ff.; G. Gurt, NIDNTT, I,365ff.; W. Eichrodt, Theology of the OT, 2 vols.; D. J. McCarthy, OT Covenant; K. Baltzer, The Covenant Formulary; D. R. Hillers, Covenant: History of a Biblical Idea; M. G. Kline, Treaty of the Great King. [/color]


The above passage in Hebrews 7:15-28 merely states that Christ will never be the one to
break that blood covenant.

It is always we who can do that. Sure, we pay the price of damnation for it, but we don't have to stay betrothed to Christ, walk the walk, and produce fruit in patience, kindness, joy, humility, and love. We can change our minds, or be tricked into doing so by the devil who perverts our teaching!

I do not want any newborn in Christ ever told that Christ will leave him.

I do want every newborn, toddler, youngster, adolescent and adult Christian taught frequently that they must walk forward, as a toddler toward his Daddy. They can pause on the path. I daresay they can literally sit down on the path, facing the throne of God in the distance, playing patty cakes with the dirt on the path, go no further than their first step to Christ, and Christ will honor them as they deserve...as babies. Saved, but just barely.

But having seen the Holy Spirit working in my newly saved Dad, no one really does stay completely still on the path. My Dad may never listen to a sermon, or read the Bible, but the Holy Spirit is in Him, and it shows. But I will never tell my Dad that he can sin and go on sinning, and still be saved, no matter what he does, because it is a lie. A lie of the Devil.

I have no objection at all to telling those newborns in Christ that they are going to break every law ever made, in their heart, and in their body, and Christ will not care, so long as they repent of it, and go forward on their walk, trying to get a little better at their walk in Christ every day of their life. I've seen my Dad do that with no other teaching than that of the Holy Spirit.

But we have a sin nature still attached to our newly made heart, and it will sin whether we want it to or not. But if we stop repenting, and join in with the sin nature, and start reveling in it, and then worse, teach it to others as being just fine with Jesus, as we see is being done in our churches today, the result is going to be very different.

The WHOLE truth must be taught to the newly born in Christ.

If anyone teaches a child he can get away with complete and total disobedience all their lives, flaunting their breaking of the covenent in Jesus's face, and still be saved, I tremble at the fate of the child, and the one who told them that foolish thing.

Once Saved, Always Saved is a doctrine of the devil, ment to lull people into disobedience.

Once Saved, Always saved is a lie of the devil, and should be seen as such, not fought as if I am trying to take people's salvation from them.

I want people to be saved, and stay saved, not just because Jesus loves them. Jesus loves everyone. It's His nature, because He is God.

But those that love Him back are those that will be in the kingdom, no matter how slight their obedience, no matter how mixed up their walk, no matter how limited their love, as long as they are headed toward Jesus.

It is the child of God who must be wary against the wiles of the devil, and the drag of that always sinning dead body that we lug around everywhere.

So I repeat, on the head of those that teach this false doctrine made up by the devil to be snare for the feet of the unwary, be the result of their teachings.

And yes, those that have taught this in error need only repent, and they will be forgiven. But they need to contact all they have ever taught the doctrine to, and say, Oh, by the way, that Once Saved, Always Saved business...it only works if you keep believing in God, and prove it with your obedience, because obedience is the only way to prove our love to God.

Blessings,

Forrest


_________________
Forrest Anderson

 2007/6/2 1:14Profile
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Posts: 640
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 Re: Once Saved...Always Saved???

Quote:

jimp wrote:
hi, there is no OSAS doctrine;



Oh, Jimp I wish this were true in the sense that no such teaching was ever taught to anyone. No, there is no doctrine that says Once Saved, Always Saved, but despite that fact, there are a lot of people who teach it, have been teaching it, and we are seeing the result in the churches even as we speak.


Quote:
it is the eternal security of the believer.It is called osas in ignorance.anyone who says that this doctrine says that you can live any way you want is also in error.



Oh, indeed, I agree! But again, the error is taught consistantly, people believe it, go back to their dead bodies, put them back on, and think they are going to be just fine come Judgement Day.


Quote:
what happens is your sins will find you out... if you are dead to this world and alive in Christ you still pay for the sins done in the flesh...in the flesh. i have seen this so often where a christian who is living a good life makes some bad choices(sin)and days later they are jobless,in jail,homeless,lose their family,you name it i have seen the results of sin and sometimes death.



This has happened in my live as well. I did a lot of sinning, and even though I kept coming back to Jesus, and He kept forgiving me, and giving me a fresh start spiritually, my life was forever changed by everything that I did that was wrong, and some of it is irrevocable.

I sorrow for the sins, and for the result they brought me, but the result is just. And I am saved, and closer to Jesus than ever before. But my life will never be the same, and frankly, it is a good reminder, as well as a testimony to what we can do to ourselves when we turn away from Jesus.

Quote:
still His grace is new every morning.jimp



Yes, and for all of us, without that, we would never be able to go on.

But because Once Saved, Always Saved is taught as a Doctrine, (Although it should be called Lucifer's Doctrine), people are being led astray. But it is not because Jesus will leave us, nor even let us go due to the sins of the old man that we drag around with us. That is why I am still saved, like many another.

But we can leave Jesus, although it takes the devil a lot of hard work and desception to pull it off, and you have to turn around and walk away from Jesus. Alas, you can see by one look at our churches that Lucifer's been using this one a lot.

Blessings,

Forrest


_________________
Forrest Anderson

 2007/6/2 2:42Profile









 Re:

Hi Forrest,

I only have a minute this morning. The Lord asked me to add this. Oh, it is awesome. About Judas. Re-read John 6 again. In the beginning of the chapter, people were following Jesus, loved His miracles etc, etc. Then Jesus said something interesting. He said...let's get away from here for I fear the people want to make me KING. Well, when the people found Jesus again, Jesus came right out and asked them, are you following me for the miracles, or is it Me? Then He poses a question. He said to really follow means to eat my flesh and drink my blood. They said...Oh this is too hard, and turned away. Now Jesus looks at His disciples and asks, are you going to BETRAY me too? Guess what...this is exactly what Judas did. Read to the end. He puts Judas in the same category as those who walked away. And gives a perfect reason as to what and why. We don’t need to guess anymore what was up with Judas.

Again, One can walk and go along for years, but when it comes to laying down your life for the Lord, totally surrendering, or s Paul said, To know Him and the fellowship of His sufferings....that is a whole other story.

Hope that helps about Judas and many who will be in the end just like Judas...those who deny Christ. They never were saved to begin with. They always do eventually walk away and say...that's a hard saying.

Forrest, you said, relationship, not religion, yet you put all kind of religion here for me to read. Relationship is what I just shared with you, right from my heart as the Lord asked me to give you, not out of someone's book or commentary.

Anyway, please put all those books down for the moment and just read and reflect on John 6, Judas and what true Christianity really is. We would never take the mark of anti-christ Forrest, only those looking for a King now and not the savior will. Same as Judas, those who have denied the Cross, and want things…you know all those wonderful miracles anti - christ will do and impress so many. It’s because they are earthly minded, and not Heavenly minded . Colossians 3:1-4
Sorry, Gotta Go for now!

Live in Christ,
Katy-did
:-)

 2007/6/2 6:16
BenBrockway
Member



Joined: 2006/5/31
Posts: 427


 Re:

Would this Scripture not also fall into the this same context that OSAS is untrue?

Quote:
26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people." 31It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.Hebrews 10:26-31 (NIV)



*edited*

 2007/6/2 7:23Profile









 Re:

Ben,
I see that scripture in two ways:

1. The author is talking to Jews sitting on the fense, who are told, "Today is the day of salvation". It's Christ or nothing. Read with the whole book of Hebrews in order, and then again begin with the first of Hebrews 10, to understand the whole chapter. The author is reminding them, the blood of Bulls and Goats could never take away sin, or bring someone into perfection(the finished work of Christ accomplished). It only reminded them year after year....until the lamb of God came. Many missed it. They rejected the redeemer...the Lamb of God, full of GRACE and Truth, and opted for a King they didn't get...now anyway. This too was Judas's problem, he wanted a King, not a savior. It wasn't a secret that Jesus was the Lanmb of God, as John the Baptist proclaimed, or when Jesus told the pharisees, Abraham rejoiced to see my day. Abraham knew ( Hebrews 11) about the redeemer. He saw the resurrection life at the time he was about to sacrifice Isaac. Abraham wouldn't know anything about a KING, as that was proclained to David, many years later.

2. Those who scoff at the the Finshed work of Christ, trampling Christ and His redeeming work underfoot...those who consider the Blood of the Covenant unholy or in otherwords not good enough, and those who have insulted the Spirit of GRACE., and/or, the Work of Christ in you, by saying you have to do it yourself, Grace is not good enough. These have have really denied Christ all the way around.

When we are Cricified with Christ and raised a New Creation, we too can say "It's Finished" and enter into His rest. Now HE is the one doing the work, not us. He will Baptize you with fire. The fire burns away the chaff. The chaff is the outside of the seed, or our old man or sin nature. Read 1st Peter 4. We must identify with Christ in death and resurrection life for this awsome GRACE to manifest.

God Bless
Katy-did :-)

 2007/6/2 10:51
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Tell me, if you get of into some bad doctrine that messes with the Godhead and the way of salvation, is there still security?

Do you know the subtelty of false apostles, deceitful workers who transform themselves into the apostles of Christ to mislead by a falsly by appearing to be of church sheapards; they preach that which twist God's Word so very subtly. Don't marvel, because Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.(2Corinth 11:13-14)

Such people are not servants of the Lord Christ but to their own empty cavity that is in there chest. By smooth speaking and flattering words they deceive the hearts of those of the innocent.(Rom 16:18)
And by fraudulency, with false doctrines, they will use the church for gain.(2Peter 2:3)

I fear lest by any means, as the serpent deceived Eve in his craftiness, so the minds should be corrupted from the purity which is in Christ.(2Corinth 11:3-4)

I wonder that the Church can be so quickly turned back from Christ who called them by the grace of Christ to another gospel which is not even the same one as the Bible preasents, These false prophets in the Church to day are determined to pervert the gospel of Christ.(Gal 1:7)

I desire zealously Christs body with a fervent mind of God(2Corinth 11:2).
It was because of those false prophets sneaking in in to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, so that they should enslave those in the church.(Gal 2:4)

I pray that we watch those causing divisions and putting stumbling blocks contrary to the doctrine which was first taught from the Apostles.(Rom 16:17)

You sat that they cant be cut off from Christ?

As the branch cannot bear fruit from itself, except it abide in the vine; niether can you, except if you abide in Christ also. The one abiding in Christ, and He in him, is one bears much fruit, because apart from Christ you are not able to do anything. Unless one remains in Christ, he is cast out as the branch and is dried up; and they gather and throw them into a fire, and they are burned. If you remain in Christ, He will listent to and answer.(John 15:4-7)

However, some of ypou say that one can not be cut out and forfeit eternal life, of which in reality, eternal life is actualy knowing Christ(John 17:3)

Don't you know that they are broken off by unfaithfulness, which is in contrast to you that stand by faithfulness. Don't be arrogant, but you'd better fear also.(Rom 11:20)
You believe that God is One. You do well; even the demons believe and tremble.(James 2:19)
And those demons believed in the preasence of Christ, how much more could one of us fall.

Jesus even said, "those false Christs, and false prophets shall deceive the very elect."(Mark 13:22)
The Elect?!

You must know that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begins with us, what shall the end be of them that continue to obey not the gospel of God?
And if the righteous are saved with much effort, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

Therefore, let them that suffer according to the will of God must be committing the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.(1Peter 4:17-19)

 2007/6/2 12:36Profile





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