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JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1132
Missouri

 Re:

I also encourage everyone to watch all of the debate. Kirk and Ray faithfully presented the gospel and this thrills my soul!!

 2007/5/10 16:46Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Actually, in my opinion, their presentation of the gospel message was lacking. Such is what I expected, as WOTM as great as it is in many things, is lacking terribly when it comes to an actual gospel presentation. So much so I would say few people could actually get saved from such preaching.

As shocking as this might seem to many of you, and as harsh as this might come across, it is the truth. Romans 10 says that if we confess Jesus as Lord and believe in our hearts that God raised Him from the dead, we can be saved. But this central fact, the resurrection of Jesus Christ, is almost entirely lost in our modern gospel preaching, including that of WOTM.

If you go back through the ABC debate, you'll spend more time watching Ray Comfort point to a Coke can as proof of God, rather than pointing to the resurrection of Christ. In fact, I don't think the resurrection even gets mentioned in the entire debate!!! I'll give Ray the benefit of the doubt, and assume he mentioned it. But if he did mention it, he mentioned it in such a way that it scarcely caught the viewers attention, and mentioned it in such a way as it to be of no consequence. And I believe our lack of resurrection preaching simply comes from our lack of resurrection living. And if we aren't living lives grounded in that resurrection, it's no wonder our ministries are so little concerned about it.

And it is because of this that I cannot rejoice with the many of you who believe some great thing occurred with Ray and Kirk getting on national TV. For no gospel was truly preached. Since when does going through a few of the Ten Commandments constitute gospel preaching? An Orthodox Jew could have said much of the very same things! Rather than rejoicing, I'm quite saddened over the entire thing. And I'm all the more saddened that the many of you are excited about the entire thing!

How is it that so many of you who hear all sorts of sermons about revival, anointing, and the resurrection not notice such a horrible lack?


_________________
Jimmy H

 2007/5/10 17:57Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
How is it that so many of you who hear all sorts of sermons about revival, anointing, and the resurrection not notice such a horrible lack?



But you will recall that the topic of the discussion was not the Gospel, but whether or not one could prove the existence of God. His audience was atheists. How can the men get to Romans 10 in 13 minutes when he was dealing with atheists? Is it not in Romans 1 and 2 where he should have been?

If Ray had stood up and read 'prophetically' the thoughts and hearts of them the people, many, including many Christians, would have thought he (Ray) was of the devil. That is the sad reality of where we really are today. If we want to talk about unction and NT preaching- we going to have to start talking about the [i]demonstration[/i] of the power of God.


1 Cor 2:4-5

And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in [u]demonstration of the Spirit and of power[/u]:

That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

There would be no need to talk apologetics if the dead were raised in the name of Christ (Acts 20:9-12). There would be no need for apologetics if devils came screaming out of people in the name of Jesus Christ (Acts 8:7). There would be no need for apologetics if a man lame from birth stood to his feet and began walking in the name of Jesus Christ (Acts 3:6-12). There would be no need for apologetics if the power of God was manifest in the place to a level where the people went to sacrifice to the ones who called on His Name (Acts 14:8-13). There would be no need for apologetics if when folk lied to the Holy Ghost in the midst of the congregation their bones were carried out like Ananias and Sapphira (Acts 5). There would be no need for apologetics if once we left off preaching we were caught up by the Holy Ghost and carried off to another location (Acts 8:39). And many more like things we could say; but when is God going to begin to bear us witness both with signs and wonder and gifts of the Holy Ghost according to His will of our message(Hebrews 2:3-4).

We can talk about a lot of things but where is the demonstration of the power of God that accompanied the preaching of the Gospel in Acts that seemed to be front and center?


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2007/5/10 22:05Profile









 Re:

Quote:
In fact, I don't think the resurrection even gets mentioned in the entire debate!!!


I exhort you dear brother to listen to the entire debate as well as the interview with the host. The Resurrection was proclaimed.

I do share your desire for more of it to be preached and taught. Shouldn't we all desire more of it? Neverless it was preached... Kirk and Ray were limited in there time and they covered alot of vital truths in the gospel in such a short amount of time. Praise the Lord for that. I'm sure we both desire for them to spend more time presenting these truths. Do not fault them for this. They had a limited time. They preached the whole counsel of the gospel.

Quote:
But if he did mention it, he mentioned it in such a way that it scarcely caught the viewers attention, and mentioned it in such a way as it to be of no consequence.



They did mention it and it caught my attention. My spirit rejoiced greatly at the sweet sound of it being proclaimed to lost and dead hearts.

For you to say there was no consequence in the way they preached it, is for you to affirm that I didn't rejoice in God at the hearing of it. Do be careful of what you say, of what you don't know as fact. "He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him." -Pro 18:13 "Doth our law judge any man, before it hear him, and know what he doeth?" -Jn 7:51

Quote:
Since when does going through a few of the Ten Commandments constitute gospel preaching?



If it were so that this was all that they preached, you would a have reason to be grieved, and I would share your tears. However, they did not just preach the law. They proclaimed future punishment, the righteous judgment of God, the diety of Christ, the cross of Christ, the resurrection, repentance, and faith.

I would love to hear an hour long sermon on each of these points. Each are vital and most necessary. But, again they had a limited amount of time and each of these vital truths were proclaimed. Praise the Lord for that.

The resurrection is a must in our presentation of the gospel. However, if one does not hear the Law of God and the righteous judgments of God demonstrated at the cross of Christ, they will not be persuaded.

If you start your presentation with "Jesus rose from the dead", there is going to be no understanding of the ressurection if you don't proclaim why Christ died.

I do not assume you are not aware of the use of the law and its importance in evangelism. But, your statement about the Law and Gospel preaching is a familiar one that has it's roots from hell.

"The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honorable." -Isa 42:21

"The law is the first message of the cross. There are three truths of the Bible that stand or fall together. They are the law of God summarized in the Ten Commandments, the cross, and the righteous judgment of almighty God. Why do I say that these truths stand or fall together? Because you cannot touch one without touching the others.

1. If you do away with the Ten Commandments, there is no such thing as sin ("...sin is the transgression of the Law" -1Jn 3:4). If there is no sin, the cross is not necessary.

2. If you do away with the cross, you have no answer to the sin question, and there is no hope for sinners.

3. If you do away with the righteous judgment of almighty God, who cares about sin, the cross, or Christ? The law is the first message of the cross." -Ernest C. Reisinger

God bless you dear brother and I am blessed to hear your desire for the ressurection to be proclaimed.

-Abraham


 2007/5/10 22:56
ADisciple
Member



Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada

 Re:

Why is it so hard for us to accept that we so often fall short?

I think of Peter preaching in the power of the Holy Spirit. It brought such conviction that men were "pricked in their heart." The word in the original is much stronger, more like they were "cut in half." That's how devastating Peter's words were. And they repented. "Men and brethren, what shall we do?" (Acts 2.37)

Or Stephen. Those who heard him, the same thing happened. "They were cut to the heart." But this time they didn't repent: they stoned him.

Why? It was the Holy Spirit.

"Nevertheless I tell you the truth: it is expedient for you that I go away; for if I go not away the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart I will send Him unto you. And when He is come HE will reprove (convict) the world of sin..." (Jn. 16.7).

It takes more than the law to convict of sin: it takes the Holy Spirit. Do you think a few atheists are too much for The Holy Spirit? When HE is there, the results will be either repentance, or stoning.

Is it too hard for us to accept that largely we lack this? Isn't this why we are seeking Him for revival? (Although we need much more than revival.) But no, we "have another go at it" in our own strength, and wonder later why we fall flat on our face.

I am tired of seeing the Ark getting carried into battle against the Philistines, and getting captured!

AD


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Allan Halton

 2007/5/10 23:47Profile
CJaKfOrEsT
Member



Joined: 2004/3/31
Posts: 901
Melbourne, Australia

 Re:

Quote:

ADisciple wrote:
It takes more than the law to convict of sin: it takes the Holy Spirit. Do you think a few atheists are too much for The Holy Spirit? When HE is there, [b]the results will be[/b] (emphasis added) either repentance, or stoning.

Is it too hard for us to accept that largely we lack this? Isn't this why we are seeking Him for revival? (Although we need much more than revival.) But no, we "have another go at it" in our own strength, and wonder later why we fall flat on our face.

I am tired of seeing the Ark getting carried into battle against the Philistines, and getting captured!

AD



I'm sorry, I'm unaware that anything was "captured" here. And with your observation of what "the results will be", when the Holy Spirit anoints a message, I guess Paul wasn't anointed when he preached on Mars Hill (Acts 17). After all, four decisions and a expression of interest from some of the hearers, "does not revival a-make". Why is it that we continually feel the need to "lean on our own understanding" when assessing whether God is, or isn't involved in something?


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Aaron Ireland

 2007/5/11 8:51Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Is it too hard for us to accept that largely we lack this? Isn't this why we are seeking Him for revival? (Although we need much more than revival.) But no, we "have another go at it" in our own strength, and wonder later why we fall flat on our face.

I am tired of seeing the Ark getting carried into battle against the Philistines, and getting captured!




There is a lot here and others may see more, but:

1) Is there conviction of sin in our ministry?
2) If not, Why? Is there as sense that God is near?
3) How is conviction of sin brought about? How is God made near? Or is this a proper way of thinking?
4) Is the Holy Spirit automatically 'there' when the Gospel is preached or are there 'criteria' for Him being present?
5) If God does the 'sending' will He not also make provision?
6) What is revival?
7) What brings about revival?
8) Is the Ark in effect on a 'cart' in many cases?
9) What does it mean for the Ark to be on the shoulders of the priests?
10) Who are the priests?
11) What role does the 'leading' of the Holy Spirit have in all this?
12) Do the priests carry the Ark whithersoever [i]they[/i] will?


I'm going out on a limb here, but I think we can't give lip service to God being front and center in our waiting on Him. If we do what He wants done it will be anointed (I use that term loosely). If we do what we want to do- no telling what will happen. What does it mean to be 'led by the Spirit?' Does it mean that God 'signs off' on what I do because I spent 3 hours in prayer? If that works, where's the power? Wheres the unction? The disciples raised a lame man to His feet in the name of Christ because they 'had' something. On their way to pray they 'had' something. What did they have? It was not silver and gold? What was the 'such as I have' that they 'gave unto thee'? Notice they 'had' it on the way [i]to[/i] prayer and not [i]from[/i] prayer. What was it that the sons of Sceva wanted to buy with money? I have never had an offer like that. No one ever came to me and said, "Man give me that ability and I will pay you!" What are we missing? This is the pink elephant in the middle of the room that no one wants to acknowledge. The NT Saints; deacons, apostles, etc., walked in the power of God. They had the 'full' package. They were 'full' of the Holy Ghost.

Quote:
Could it be that a apologetical church is a apostating church?



Could it be that we are drifting away form God and doing a lot of things in the name of God and He is not showing up?


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2007/5/11 8:53Profile
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Suddenly the conversation is much larger then Ray Comfort and Kirk Cameron.

Brother Robert, if I could answer your questions I would be some kind of man.

You are describing the shape, form, and volume of a hole...it is not a something that is there but something that is not there. I am convinced it has something greatly to do with the lack of a primitive faith in our God.

We live in such a machninistic prayerless age, that even most prayers are more expressions of our boastful human virtue then real faith in God. I think we are preaching and prophesying ourselves out of expecting God. We have too many people who claim to know that the sun is setting in the west.

They may be holy prophets indeed but they do not decide the issue...prayer will decide the issue because God has the issue in hand.

Joshua saw that the sun's setting in the west was going to deny God's people a victory. His prayer stopped the setting of the sun and the rising of the moon...our prayers can do that and even more.

Formulaic and step by step methods of prayer, requirements of duration or passion all be damned. I am talking about a primitive expectation of God. Yet even now we bring too much education to bear on Church history, with our sociological, economic, and political explanations for past revivals...unbelieving hubris in the simple power, purpose and provision in prayer. Already we are saying "yes, but prayer must have feet..." and go about our plan without real prayer, or even worse we waste our time in hours of prayer (a spiritless parody) while still believing the outcome is of our own design and doing.

So if we believe the Church in America is finished, please let's not tell others about the hours we've spent in prayer to no avail. Such tellings are a denouncement of not only prayer, but even of the Lord. Such misplaced confidence in our own smart assesment of the church is the most cunning form of idolatry...we may be well informed about a great many matters except about that which God can do.

Samson's strength did not help him when he was thirsty. It was prayer. Likewise our great strength, our heritage of the faith, our knowledge of the scriptures, our experience in witnessing and peaching, our mastery of ancient languages, will not help us either.

Jacob was often a crafty rebel, but when he westled with God he was given a ladder. It does not take a great man to pray, but prayer will make great men out of even rebels.

So this is my two cents brother. My confidence is not in prayer...
my confidence is in prayer that sees the Lord. Some will say yes, but we must first be willing to pick up the cross---but I know without prayer the cross is too heavy. Others will say, all depends on holiness, boldness, or sacrifice, or peachers who are unafraid of rebuking....yet all of these outcomes are impossible without the specific kind of prayer that actually expects God to send down his fire.

By the way..I doubt God ever "signs off" on our plans...I am a novice but the only signing I can find in the NT is on a man's heart and even on a man's forehead...he signs the man, not the plan.

So let's stop beating each other up for the lack of fire in our own lives. It may take years...but it can also only take a moment...we can't keep prophesying to each other that it's over and then belive our prayers are useful. Prophets may have forseen the movements of the heavens, but the movements of the heavens can be arrested through prayer.

For nearly a century we have invented and prescribed methods of church. We inventors and prescribers are failures in every sense of the word. Yet, inspite of the failure there is an unction to pray! That there is an unction to pray upon the likes of me has given me the hope that I have been longing for. I believe God will supply a kind of prayer that God answers and his answers are not hidden and mysterious but glorious. I am happy to let this prayer be the last and final calling on my life.

I am happy also to taste the dust dear brothers....I am the weakest here. I have complained and whined about my weak personality often to the Lord. He knows I have envied stronger men...their characters, their command, their influence. Yet inspite of my sin He has been most merciful to me...He has satisfied my soul and let me know He helps the Church. I know the Lord will not be absent from us in our hour of need.

MC


_________________
Mike Compton

 2007/5/11 9:47Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri

 Re:

Thanks for sharing that MC. I needed that.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2007/5/11 10:45Profile
ADisciple
Member



Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 835
Alberta, Canada

 Re:

Quote:

RobertW wrote:

Could it be that we are drifting away form God and doing a lot of things in the name of God and He is not showing up?



Here's another question to add to the list Robert lays out in his last post.

"The priests said not, Where is the LORD?" (Jer. 2.8)

But as then, so now. We suppose Him to be in the company. We continue on without Him. The Ark of God, when the Philistines finally were able to get rid of it, was put in the house of Abinadab in Kirjathjearim, where it remained long time. Saul, it seems, went his whole reign without being much concerned for the whereabouts of the Ark.

It took David to bring it back. (After he had discovered God's way.)

...When I see in Scripture and throughout Church history what happens when the Lord IS present, I feel ashamed at the way we try so hard to find ways to say He is in the picture when He is so conspicuously absent.

Just prior to the revival in the Hebrides back in the late 1940's, there was a prayer meeting (in a barn, I think it was) and as a few of them were seeking God and agonizing over their condition, one of the young men said something like, "Surely the Lord Jesus Christ can do better than this!"

The rest is history. God met that cry, obviously pleased at the way it honoured Him.

I grieve at the way our God is mocked and scorned among the heathen (because of us). He is able to put His enemies to shame... if we will seek Him for a deeper circumcision!

"Father, glorify Thy Name," cried Jesus. And the Father replied, "I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again" (Jn. 12.28).

He will be as glorified in the Church as He was in the life of our Lord Jesus Christ!

Let us seek Him that His Glory be revealed! THEN let's see what the atheists have to say. When the Lord is in His Holy Temple, all the earth will be dumfounded before Him.

AD


_________________
Allan Halton

 2007/5/11 11:50Profile





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