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broclint
Member



Joined: 2006/8/1
Posts: 370
West Monroe, LA

 Re:

Read this thread with interest and have not heard the man mentioned in the beginning of the thread so I have no comment upon someone whom I have never read, however since the discussion has moved beyond him to faith in general:
Having been on both sides of this aisle, a grandson that got cancer at age 8 and died shortly before his 13th birthday, two children dying with Huntington's, a wife that died with it, presently in the hospital with a child with CP who has pnuemonia, and being on hand many times when others that I have loved had left the temporary and entered into ETERNITY it is very easy to feel like there must be something terribly wrong with your faith to not be able to raise these dead bodies or command this cancer to leave, or cure this hereditary disease and blah, blah, blah... all of which has to do with the hear and now and none of which has to do with eternity which is our next step. It is wonderful and good for there to be healing, and I have been instantly healed before, and seen others instantly healed, others progressively healed, certainly have seen the dead in trespasses and sins, brought to life, but...
the whole Gospel... regardless of how many miracles the Lord did, what was the point of His miracles? The man who had been crippled, let down from the roof? He forgave the sin first, and healed afterwards so that they would know that the Son of Man had power to forgive sins.

Far, far too much emphasis on the here and now, whereas in just a little while these healed bodies, or raised bodies, or whatever will be somewhere in ETERNITY.

Second point and I'm done, or rather second question: the faith chapter in the Bible, Hebrews 11, tell me what kind of faith dominates that chapter? Does it not take far more faith to "not accept deliverance", far more faith to say, "though he slay me", far more faith to keep going on when there are nothing but clouds and darkness surrounding you, knowing full well that He has said, "I will never leave you or forsake you" when from all that you "see" He has.

Faith that is seen is not faith, neither hope that is seen according to Paul. Seeing the "invisible" takes far more faith than seeing and seeking the "signs and wonders". And as far as the "downtrodden and oppression", try Paul's faith:
2 Corinthians 4:7 - 12 (ESV) 7But we have this treasure in jars of clay, to show that the surpassing power belongs to God and not to us. 8We are afflicted in every way, but not crushed; perplexed, but not driven to despair; 9persecuted, but not forsaken; struck down, but not destroyed; 10always carrying in the body the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be manifested in our bodies. 11For we who live are always being given over to death for Jesus’ sake, so that the life of Jesus also may be manifested in our mortal flesh. 12So death is at work in us, but life in you... edited to add:
2 Corinthians 4:16 - 18 (ESV) 16So we do not lose heart. Though our outer nature is wasting away, our inner nature is being renewed day by day. 17For this slight momentary affliction is preparing for us an eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison, 18as we look not to the things that are seen but to the things that are unseen. For the things that are seen are transient, but the things that are unseen are eternal.



Thank God for miracles, but thank God for the Amy Carmichael's, the Hudson Taylor's, the C. T. Studd's, and so many, many more, whose faith made them glorify God while the world, the flesh, and the devil, was saying, curse God and die.

Clint


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Clint Thornton

 2008/1/26 9:26Profile
broclint
Member



Joined: 2006/8/1
Posts: 370
West Monroe, LA

 Re: sorry to post twice but had to say just a tad more

Quote:
Ron said: I think people who propagate this kind of stuff are dangerous and I steer clear of them.



Quote:
Ginnyrose said: If we study the context, the entire scriptures, miracles are done with only one purpose: to honor and glorify God. How many modern miracle-workers in the western world will go on TV to promote themselves, the miracle after something spectaular occurs? Americans are too proud, work too hard to be in the limelight, displacing God as the sole authority for life: have substituted logic, reasoning for his clear teachings/directives.



Quote:
Dian’s signature says: "The greatest failure of the church is to prepare God's people for suffering." Basilea Schlink



Amen to that!

I apologize if I pounced a little too quickly onto this subject, but I have seen all too many through the years that have been pushed farther down into despair by the kind of preaching/teaching that is just like what came out of the mouths of those who were Job’s comforters. If you read the comments of Job’s comforters you find them using the very same kind of reasoning that is used repeatedly today with those who proclaim all sorts of super faith and that are trying to bring the rest of us “up” to their exalted level. The line to Job was “if you were” or “if you would”. And their assessment of Job was “you are not, because…”


But what was God’s testimony of Job? That is the important question. The devil’s line of reasoning with the very Son of God was, “if you are the son of God command…” He commanded and healed and raised the dead on His own terms and for the one purpose of glorifying the Father and verifying the Word that He spoke.

There is far too much of this measurement of faith by miracles and far too little upon what faith indeed is, and that is[i]perfect trust [/i] regardless, which is precisely the kind of faith that Abraham displayed. Jesus said, “Blessed are those who have not seen and yet believe”.

What a trail of faith found through all these centuries of those who during the course of their ministering to the lost, lost all and counted it but dung for the sake of Jesus Christ, and their contribution to the kingdom cannot be measured from the Fanny Crosby’s, the David Brainerd’s, David Livingstone’s, Corrie ten Boon’s, the martyrs around the world, and on and on… those are the kinds of lives that put us on our knees seeking for far more than seeing physical bodies healed to die again.

What a vast difference in being intimidated by the sheer holiness of lives rather than intimidated by comparing whether “I have the faith to raise the dead or to heal the sick”.

I apologize if I have offended anyone by the interruption of this thread, and I certainly do not mean to compare and compete in suffering, with this tip of the iceberg that I have mentioned… it is all a part of being in this fallen world. I believe it we look at the miracles of Jesus and those that occurred in the lives of the apostles, in the context of the whole of scripture, we will find a far different emphasis than is found in those who claim to glorify Jesus Christ, but whose names are wowed because of their great faith, rather than Jesus Christ truly glorified because of His greatness and His holiness.

One more thought that I believe that needs to be articulated, and that is knowing God in His righteous judgments… the degree of suffering, such as was witnessed during the holocaust, and no doubt will be witnessed again… What will happen to “faith” during those scenes when instead of healing and deliverance and raising the dead, the dead are stacked like so much cord-wood and the mourning has passed beyond the point of tears? Will the kind of preaching/teaching that emphasizes raising the dead and healing the sick and faith from that [i]very narrow perspective[/i] of faith help during those times of crisis that are so frequently referred to in the Psalms where God seems to be silent and the heavens seem to be brass, because of the abounding sin… ??

I love you folks here on this site… even those who need an extra cup of coffee and those who ‘did’ it all, and even the crunchy ones… I want us all to be, as was stated on another thread by Mike B. to be ready and “faithful” for and [b]through[/b] “whatever”. :-)

Clint


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Clint Thornton

 2008/1/26 13:31Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Hebrews

Clint, you make the perfect point and illustration by way of Hebrews. Seems a hinge is presented right at 11:36

[i]And others had[/i] ...

Quote:
... trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment:



Some delivered others tormented. Who decides? Who determines these things?

Quote:
Yea your right! this is definitely dangerous stuff I would rather attend a Church that teaches we should be Sick, Poor and also teaches the good old Downtrodden or Oppression Gospel, now that is what Jesus taught right?



Mr. Bill ...

You have been with us a long time. Brother, your barbs are getting weary and are highly unnecessary. The ideal of 'nobodies perfect' is often bandied about and yet you have turned to sarcasm as a posture and a defense. Can you strike a balance without the baby and the bathwater approach? It is redundant to keep repeating that there are very valid concerns expressed by those who have experienced the very worst of these things and you would make light of it ...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

A thought to the matter here ...

[i]In fact, even CHRISTIAN AMERICANS love the Almighty dollar so much that they are willing to make up ENTIRE DOCTRINES to prove that God loves money just as much as they do. It is a new kind of gospel - never seen in the history of the world before. The Americans invented it and spread it around the earth. And now, even in REVIVAL COUNTRIES, this gospel of greed is taking over. Carter Conlon says that he was in a poor African nation recently where there are 700,000 little children living without parents on the streets - and yet the PASTORS ARE DRIVING BMW's and preaching SELFISH PROSPERITY. Where did they get such sickness? -They got it from America. We beam it to them live by satellite.[/i]


[i]Has there ever been an American generation whose preachers go on satellite television and teach other leaders in 'Revival' countries how to "milk" the sheep for money, and grow rich at the expense of the poor? No, I tell you, America has NEVER done this before. Our TV preachers are now actually being used by the devil to corrupt true moves of God all over the globe. (Go to Nigeria, Ghana, Brazil and see what I mean. American "Prosperity" is everywhere - and still spreading).[/i]


[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?topic_id=21884&forum=35&9]Andrew Strom [/url]

There is a word that codifies all this, one word;

Invention.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2008/1/26 13:47Profile
MrBillPro
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3422
Texas

 Re:

Quote:

crsschk wrote:

Mr. Bill ...

You have been with us a long time. Brother, your barbs are getting weary and are highly unnecessary. The ideal of 'nobodies perfect' is often bandied about and yet you have turned to sarcasm as a posture and a defense. Can you strike a balance without the baby and the bathwater approach? It is redundant to keep repeating that there are very valid concerns expressed by those who have experienced the very worst of these things and you would make light of it ...



Personally I feel with this response that I don't fit in here, why? because I don't go along to get along my responses in my opinion are not nearly as bad as some I have personally witnessed here by far especially lately some I have read have been down right rude and I am really shocked they were not deleted.

If you feel that I am out of place with my personal opinions are as you said "sarcasm" please let me know, I would not want to be anywhere were I am not welcomed, I have never in my "Christian" non perfect life ever went along to get along with any majority, and I have received many PM's from other Brothers and Sisters that this would be happening to me soon if I did not stop, because I do not go along to get along but everyone that did PM me said to hold my ground that they liked the way I presented things I was honest and to the point. Please let me know if I am not wanted here and I will be happy to take my "sarcasm" as you put it somewhere else.



Could you please explain what you mean by my ideals of nobody's perfect, I only know of one perfect person and thats Jesus Christ, are you saying there is someone else thats perfect? or just what are you saying you lost me here, sorry I don't understand.

Mike, I am sorry but I do feel like you are picking on me because I have seen a lot worse sarcasm and as I said down right rude remarks that I have never seen you scold anyone like this, and also I feel a PM would have been more Christian like instead of letting the whole world know that you feel I am acting stupid here. I personally also feel it's not just you alone that caused me to get ripped here, but all I can say is I am sorry and please forgive me thats all I have to offer.

My remarks were not at all to make light of anyone or anything it's ok to slam a Pastor here and talk down right trashy about him but it not ok to offer up a little joke in response, if you decide to let me stay I will try my best to do better, but as I said I am sort of the rebel for Christ like person
or maybe someone that takes up for the folks that are not here to defend themselves, that some slam . I really feel it's wrong to slam Pastors or etc. if that Pastor is not here to defend Himself or Herself but it's your place so we have to go by your rules, and I don't mind going by your rules I wished everyone would.

Mike we all promote our own agendas here and our own beliefs some more than others and I have known you long enough to kind of know yours. I know you don't like my Pastor Joel Osteen, you have even started threads about him and I let that go with some minimal responses even thought it hurt my feelings I did not say much because I did not want getting you all excited at me I just tried to keep the peace, I have said it many times here "UNTIL " we stop all the Pastor bashing because thats all it is, more of us will have to go through what I am having to deal with right now.
It's sad that it seems like the only righteous Pastors are the ones that there sermons are listed here or the ones promoted here and we had better not say a word about them or we will be in trouble. I have seen this stuff in action and I know this is true. If standing up for what I believe and saying whats on my mind makes you mad at me and you ban me well at least I got it all out but I will say we "all" here have some growing to do.

Under Construction,
Mr. Bill


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Bill

 2008/1/26 21:01Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Clarifying

Brother ...

For a rebel you sure are sensitive ;-)

Quote:
Could you please explain what you mean by my ideals of nobody's perfect, I only know of one perfect person and thats Jesus Christ, are you saying there is someone else thats perfect? or just what are you saying you lost me here, sorry I don't understand.



Just something that you keep repeating when others are pointing out problems with what is being taught by certain ministries. Even here Bill the matter of defending is curious. It is unfortunate that PM's are being used in this fashion as it just fosters a sectarian spirit and creates even more confusion, but that you would appeal to them for justification ... Aren't we in the realm of [i]comparing ourselves by ourselves[/i]?

No brother, none of this has anything to do with your being wanted here or not or going along to get along or any other foolish notion that might be insinuated by whomever.

There is nothing to hide and this need not be taken so much to heart as personal effrontery.


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Mike Balog

 2008/1/26 23:03Profile
MrBillPro
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 3422
Texas

 Re:

Well I am basically done with all I have to say, regardless of what you might believe or what you want to call it, talking about anyone rather it be a Pastor or whoever if they are not here to defend themselves in my opinion is not very Christian like period. Trust me if I were on another forum and someone was talking about you, I would take up for you and tell them the same that's it rude to talk about Mike because he is not here to defend himself it's wrong and not very Christian like. It's almost like being in court and the defendant not even being able to tell their side of the story and the jury just says guilty. Also I do not ask nor condone nor promote folks to PM me I would hope you would not find me to blame for that, and I sure don't use others personal opinions to justify anything I believe, I do a good enough job of it myself if not you and I would not even be having this discussion, anyway I will try my best to do better but it's just the way God built me it's my personality and if you really knew me personally you would have never called me out in front of the world. :-)


_________________
Bill

 2008/1/26 23:24Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Defending the indefensible ...

oh brother ... brother!

The things that are being discussed are those things being taught and we are to test them. The things we discuss here are likewise 'testable' why should we go behind closed doors to address that which is done publicly? That isn't a dig or a barb or an accusation, in fact, that it is thought so is where we get thrust into these confusions in the first place. It's just not [i]that[/i] personal and it doesn't need to be made that way.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2008/1/26 23:35Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Hey now ...

Quote:
Mike we all promote our own agendas here and our own beliefs some more than others and I have known you long enough to kind of know yours. I know you don't like my Pastor Joel Osteen, you have even started threads about him and I let that go with some minimal responses even thought it hurt my feelings I did not say much because I did not want getting you all excited at me I just tried to keep the peace, I have said it many times here "UNTIL " we stop all the Pastor bashing because thats all it is, more of us will have to go through what I am having to deal with right now.
It's sad that it seems like the only righteous Pastors are the ones that there sermons are listed here or the ones promoted here and we had better not say a word about them or we will be in trouble. I have seen this stuff in action and I know this is true. If standing up for what I believe and saying whats on my mind makes you mad at me and you ban me well at least I got it all out but I will say we "all" here have some growing to do.



Did you add this in? I must have missed it ... Bill, please, I am not coming down on you as you suppose ... I don't recall starting any such threads or postings but have certainly made comments in them. Again, your posture is to defend the man and disregard the teaching. I am probably more weary of hearing yet another post in his regard than you are, it's gotten old an tediously tired. But that doesn't change the matter of what is being taught, nor does the idea of pushing everything off to 'pastor bashing' or 'nobodies perfect' resolve anything either. You are making the point for me that I tried to make earlier. Sarcasm or personal effrontery, defending a man over what he is teaching ... Even here, in this thread, what is at issue? Is it not what is being taught that is the issue? I think the majority get your point when things start getting out of hand. I also must wonder if you are getting the point however.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2008/1/27 0:01Profile
changed4ever
Member



Joined: 2008/1/26
Posts: 4
melbourne, victoria.australia

 Re:

dear clint. I would like to recommend an exegesis of the book of Job by the 17th C mystic Mme Guyon. The Bible can, of course be taken on many levels, and while accurate and historic, it is after all, a spiritual journey.

Changing our dyslexic state of spiritual misunderstanding is of the utmost importance, if we are to truly grasp the power of the gospel message that Jesus left for us. There must be a paradigm shift . The trouble of course is, one does not know that one is suffering from the condition until one has been redeemed from it.

changed4ever



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christine thompson

 2008/1/27 0:15Profile
broclint
Member



Joined: 2006/8/1
Posts: 370
West Monroe, LA

 Re: dyslexic state of spiritual misunderstanding?

changed4ever:

Can you tell me what it is I should be looking for in Mme J. Guyon's teaching on Job? And could you elaborate just a little on "our dyslexic state of spiritual misunderstanding". Not at all disputing the dyslexia :-) , just need some clarification to see where you are coming from or where you are going.

Thanks...


Mike B.

I reread your comments on this thread as well as all the others... I believe some of the very valid points brought up here (especially the dialouge between you and Dian) regarding faith could be explored as a stand alone thread minus any reference to a particular ministry, and I believe it might be quite profitable for all especially if our pastor and Greek scholar in residence Brother Ron would give us a little more input that does not have to referenced to someone's ministry but strictly to the Biblical subject... I don't know if there has already been a thread of this sort...

Certainly not looking for debate and argument but clarity, especially in view of the fact that "faith" has been so redefined in so many areas.

Clint


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Clint Thornton

 2008/1/28 12:40Profile





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