Good. I figured that after I wore myself giving explanation after expalnation it would get back to that and you would have gained nothing.
What can be safely assumed from scripture to be the truth that can be built upon? If we can conclude he was then did he ever lose his independence; his ability to make choices?
_________________Ron Halverson
I'm finished, Been. I won't chase your rabbits. You figure it out from here.Perhaps someone has something they would like to contribute. If not then I will let the thread die; chaulk it off to it being a poor question.
Ormly wrote:Good. I figured that after I wore myself giving explanation after expalnation it would get back to that and you would have gained nothing.
_________________Josh Parsley
Simply, I don't appreciate going in circles with someone who doesn't wish to pay attention to what is written but would rather seek to find in my wording something to accuse, because I don't line up with their persuasion. That is not fair nor is it good Christian dialogue.I was already accused of being a Buddhist by this person and more followed without any further questioning except leading questions that would sidetrack the discussion. It is already so far off topic because of this person that it may not get back on track.Why not just say: "I never looked at it like that before", Or, "Hmmmm, interesting"?
InTheLight wrote:Quote:What can be safely assumed from scripture to be the truth that can be built upon? If we can conclude he was then did he ever lose his independence; his ability to make choices?I believe your question here may just be an extension of thought from the Total Depravity thread and that this question perhaps reveals a misunderstanding of what Total Depravity is.My understanding (limited as it is) of Total Depravity is that our whole being (will, heart, mind, body) is corrupted. It says that, as a result of the Fall, sin is something in our very nature and that we are sinful apart from our actions.
However, being thus corrupted does not mean that we can no longer make choices, or our heart can no longer feel, or our mind can no longer think.
These faculties remain, but the governing principle behind them is now depraved.
Depravity simply means that mankind has no inclination to redeem itself.
This doesn't mean that man can't do good things or take civil actions or take even good external religious actions but Scripture does seem to make it clear that no unregenerate person can do any act that is acceptable with God (see Romans 8:8 and Hebrews 11:6).
The term "Total Depravity" is no where even hinted at in the scriptures as applying to an involuntary condition placed upon man. That is not arguable from scripture. We have proven that.
How so??? You mean you can't genuinely love your kids, wife, et al, would not lay down your life for them? Depravity says you wouldn't, so there is something radically wrong with your understanding or that presented for us to accept as gospel truth.
That could erradicate the sin of Adam's trangression is all your above refers to and to what I whole heartly agree. Thus, the distinction needs be made between Sin and sins. Sins we have everything to do with; we are responsible for them, Adam's Sin, we do not. Only Jesus could and did handle that one. Thank God!!
That leaves us now with the reason for creation and begs the question would Christ still have come to Earth if Adam would not have transgressed? Would the cross still be necessary in that scenario?
Dear Ormly,From the beginning, I asked...
I am beginning to wonder what you are seeking. Are you looking for an answer to this question, or just an opportunity to promote your own ideas?
I figured that after I wore myself giving explanation after expalnation it would get back to that and you would have gained nothing.
Please do not take offense to this. The philosophy that you are speaking of sounds much like Buddhism.
Why not just say: "I never looked at it like that before", Or, "Hmmmm, interesting"?
_________________Blake Kidney
Dear Been, I am 60+ years a born again Christian.
InTheLight wrote:Quote:The term "Total Depravity" is no where even hinted at in the scriptures as applying to an involuntary condition placed upon man. That is not arguable from scripture. We have proven that.I can't speak for others here but I can say that you haven't proven it to me. Perhaps the term is not directly found in Scripture, the same can be said for the term 'Trinity', and yet the both doctrines are built upon the careful study of many verses.
Dear Ormly,I am sorry if you feel as though I am questioning your salvation. That is not my intention or my place. *edit*I think I have said enough. I will leave.In love,Blake