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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : The Ark of The Covenant, part 2

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RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
However, the bible has many verses where even JESUS said that the SABBATH was NOT against us but to HELP us. It also was not a handwritten ordinance by MOSES, it was by God!



This is a serious theological error that I encounter from time to time when folk want to discount Moses or something. The fact is "All scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for reproof and doctrine." If it is in the Canon the writer was carried along by the Holy Spirit in authoring it. This is why red letter bibles are nonsense. The red words are no more inspired than the black. It is all God breathed.

The Sabbath was the easiest commandment to fulfill. All the person had to do before the New Covenant is cease from working. The pharisees put their fences around this commandment and a person almost had to lie in bed all day. Yet, to break it under the old covenant was the death penalty. Now imagine; a person is offered a day of rest with pay (as God kept sending Manna for Sabbath after the flight from Egypt) and the people rebelled against it. Humans who are often lazy by nature refused to take a day off with pay. Thay is absolute evidence of the Law of Sin being in our members. No matter how self-helping the command was- because God commanded it the people kicked against it. Amazing!

Even so now. God is saying, "REST in Christ." You don't have to work to be saved- just trust in Him and rest in Him. But what do folk do? They are bent on work, work, work. Touch not, taste not, handle not, etc. This is the jest of many of the cults. Works based salvation. Why would a people rebel against entering into God's rest? I think it is evidence of something.


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Robert Wurtz II

 2007/4/21 7:24Profile
ChrisJD
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Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Hi everyone.


Brother Robert shared,


"I am trying to see how you keep making the connection to the teachings of our Lord; i.e., "His commandments" and the Ten Commandments given at Sinai?

Keeping the Ten Commandments is not the same thing as walking in the Spirit."


If I may add in regards to the distinction between the Ten Commandments and walking after the Spirit...


The Lord Jesus said




[b][color=660033] My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me[/color][/b]


even following Him into a field....


[b][color=000000] At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn and to eat. But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.[/color][/b]


After being charged with crime by the Pharisees, He said to them


[b][color=660033]But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.[/color][/b]


Paul the Apostle wrote, saying that God had made them...


[b][color=000000]...able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.[/color][/b]


[i]...not of the letter, but of the spirit[/i]


It would seem that, because the Pharisees only judged matters according to the letter of the Law, they erred, even attempting to condemn their Lawgiver and charing Him with guilt.


[i]...the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life[/i]

and Paul goes on to say of the Ten Commandments that it was...

[i]...the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones[/i]


Do those who appeal to the Ten Comandments as [b]their Law[/b] at the same time, do they neglect the keeping of the rest of the Law?

Notice how the Lord Jesus reffered to [i]their Law[/i]


[b][color=660033] It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true...[/color][/b]

[b][color=660033] Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?[/color][/b]

[i]your law[/i]...He says


more...


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Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2007/4/21 11:03Profile
ChrisJD
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Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

cont'...



The scripture does not seperate the Ten Commandments, [b]or the 7th day Sabbath[/b] from the entirety of the Law:


[b][color=000000]And the Lord said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel. And he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.[/color][/b] - Exodus 34:27-28


Those who make their appeals to the sabbath day from the Ten Commandments, do they appeal to how the law prescribed it to be kept as well...


for intsance...



[b][color=000000] Ye shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations upon the sabbath day.[/color][/b] -Exodus 34:28


[b][color=000000]And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day. And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation. And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him. And The Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp. And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses.[/color][/b] -Numbers 15:32-36


This was not a tradition of man, it was what...[b][color=000000]the Lord commanded Moses[/color][/b]


Once again,



The scripture does not seperate the Ten Commandments, [b]or the 7th day Sabbath[/b] from the entirety of the Law.


Those who appeal to the keeping of the 7th day Sabbath from the Ten Commandments, do they also appeal to God's commands on [b]how to keep it[/b]?


Speaking about circumcision, which the Scripture, not man's suppositions, say was indeed given before the Law, Paul warns...



[b][color=000000] Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.[/color][/b]


[i]...whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace[/i]


Chris


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Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2007/4/21 11:20Profile
vico
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Joined: 2005/5/25
Posts: 258


 Re:

Quote:
...whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace


Amen Brother!

 2007/4/21 11:27Profile
InTheLight
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Joined: 2003/7/31
Posts: 2772
Phoenix, Arizona USA

 Re:

Quote:
The bible shows that the Sabbath was made in the CREATION WEEK, it was made for ALL MANKIND and also, Collosians mentions the abolishing of SABBATHS. Plural. It's refering to the sabbath festivals.



This thought that Paul was referring to sabbath festivals seems puzzling to me.
Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
(Col 2:16)
It seems that the word translated 'sabbath days' in the KJV has the weekly sabbath in view. The phrase "a holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days" refers to the annual, monthly, and weekly holy days of the Jews. If Paul were referring to special ceremonial dates of rest in that passage, why would he have used the word "Sabbath?" He had already mentioned the ceremonial dates when he spoke of holydays and new moons.

In Christ,

Ron


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Ron Halverson

 2007/4/21 11:28Profile
ChrisJD
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Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re: Whose voice?

The scripture does not seperate the Ten Commandments, or the 7th day Sabbath from the entirety of the Law.


[i]And the Lord said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel...[/i]


To continue this point..


The word which is translated [b]tenor[/b], according to Strong's is



H6310
ôּä
peh
peh
From H6284; the mouth (as the means of blowing), whether literally or figuratively (particularly speech); specifically edge, portion or side; adverbially (with preposition) according to: - accord (-ing as, -ing to), after, appointment, assent, collar, command (-ment), X eat, edge, end, entry, + file, hole, X in, mind, mouth, part, portion, X (should) say (-ing), sentence, skirt, sound, speech, X spoken, talk, tenor, X to, + two-edged, wish, word.




[i]the mouth...[/i]


According to this definition, this then was [i]the mouth[/i] of the Covenant which God had made with the [b][color=000000]children of Israel[/color][/b], which if I understand this passage correctly, was the Ten Commandments...


[i]...And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.[/i]


Moses was the mediator of the Covenant of the Law.


Jesus is the mediator of the New Covenant. He said...


[b][color=660033]My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me[/color][/b]


[i]My sheep hear my voice[/i]


Is this not the mouth of the New Covenant?

And he also said...


[b][color=660033]I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.[/color][/b]




Paul the Apostle upon his coversion was told...



[b][color=000000] The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.[/color][/b]



[i]...shouldest hear the voice of his mouth[/i]


And he says of himself and the other Apostles, that they were...



[b][color=000000]...able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.[/color][/b]


And the Lord Jesus said...


[b][color=660033] It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.[/color][/b]


and also...


[b][color=660033]Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.[/color][/b]


but then He also warned the religous leaders...


[b][color=660033]Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.[/color][/b]


Chris


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Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2007/4/21 11:47Profile
ChrisJD
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Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

I feel to add briefly here to those who may read what I have written and charge me with promoting lawlessness, the Lord Jesus taught of those who were born of the Spirit...


[b][color=660033] The wind bloweth where it listeth...


...so is every one that is born of the Spirit.[/color][/b]

Or, as other translations put it...


[i]The wind bloweth where [b]it will[/b][/i].

Chris


EDIT I should have added this also, that the scripture says [i] For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.[/i]


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Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2007/4/21 11:56Profile
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Joined: 2004/11/29
Posts: 275


 Re:

Jesus fulfilled the law.

How did He keep the Sabbath? Worshipping the Father, fellowshipping with believers, teaching, healing the sick and casting out devils...and, so should we. He was/is our living example in all things.

When Moses struck the rock twice, in disobedience, God charged him with unbelief. Num 20:12 The disobedient children of Israel didn't enter the Promised Land, because of unbelief. Heb 3:19. Jesus could not do many works in Nazareth, because of their unbelief. Matt 13:58. Heb 3:12 calls it an "EVIL heart of unbelief." Unbelief is rebellion against God.

Why? "...he that believeth not God hath made him a liar." 1 John 5:10.

"Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law." Rom 3:31.

When Bible figures excercised faith, it was, always, connected with obedience to the will of God.

"By faith...Abraham obeyed." Heb 11:8.

"And if ye be Christ's, then are YE Abraham's seed..." Ga 3:28.

Only, if we obey His Word!

 2007/4/21 20:30Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
How did He keep the Sabbath? Worshipping the Father, fellowshipping with believers, teaching, healing the sick and casting out devils...and, so should we. He was/is our living example in all things.



I was wondering today (being Saturday and all) if our debate of this issue would actually have been a breach of the Sabbath under the law? Our thoughts should be God-wards perhaps. I think the danger would be in almost worshiping the Sabbath itself.

Jesus clearly said it is OK to do good on the Sabbath even if we take the lesser literal approach. The priests had to do their jobs on Sabbath. A male child had to be circumcised if it were the 8th day from it's birth. Folk regularly helped their distressed livestock. If Sunday was shifted to Saturday in my life it would make a mockery of the word 'Shabbat'; because I don't seem to cease hardly for an hour from 7:30 AM until 8:30 PM. It is the most stress filled day of the week. My Sunday would certainly be a violation of Sabbath under the Old Covenant as it would be with many Christians. :-?


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Robert Wurtz II

 2007/4/21 23:20Profile
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
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 Re:

Colossians 2:13-17 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it. Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Jesus Christ Himself is our Sabbath. We are to now remember the Sabbath and keep it Holy. We are His body the Church and every day is a Sabbath unto Him, every moment is a Sabbath to Him. We are Holy because He is Holy. Do what in remembrance of Him? Take in His body and blood, this is now our Sabbath and our worship.

Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, [which is] your reasonable service.

Remember His day and Keep it Holy. That is 24-7. He is our Sabbath and all in all.

In Christ our Sabbath: Phillip


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Phillip

 2007/4/22 2:40Profile





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