SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Image Map
Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : The Ark of The Covenant, part 2

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 Next Page )
PosterThread
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

The 10 Commandments Came at Mount Sinai. Paul deals with this so to make it absolutely clear.

Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. (Galatians 4:24)



That which was given at Sinai is said to be to bondage. The covenant that contained the Ten Commandments genders to bondage. It cannot meet the need of man's redemption. It can only expose the law of Sin that was (or is) in our members. We have to die to the Law so we can be espoused to Christ. The letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. Adding any of the Old Covenant to the New only takes away from the perfection of the New. The goal is the Fruit of the Spirit. That is the goal. The Ten Commandments cannot take us there. Only the fulness of the Holy Spirit in us- as we rest in Christ can accomplish what the Law never could.



_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2007/4/21 0:00Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
55. God has never given permission to any man to work upon it. Reader, by what authority do you use the seventh day for common
labor?



Earlier we demonstrated that:


Then said Jesus unto them, I will ask you one thing; Is it lawful on the sabbath days to do good, or to do evil? to save life, or to destroy it? (Luke 6:9)

And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by Him. (Col. 3:17)

Whatever you do, do it wholeheartedly as though you were working for your real master and not merely for humans. (Col. 3:23 GWT)

If we do everything to the glory of God how could it be possible to violate the Sabbath for a Christian? If our physical labors are all God-ward in that sense- how can we possibly violate the Sabbath by physical efforts? The only way we can violate the Sabbath in our times, as believers is to cease resting in the finished work of the cross and try to take up the commandments of the law as you are both proposing. To do what you are saying is to break the Sabbath in it's ultimate sense.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2007/4/21 0:12Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
No Christian of the New Testament, either before or after the resurrection, ever did ordinary work upon the seventh day. Find one case of the kind, and we will yield the question. Why should
modern Christians do differently from Bible Christians?



This is because Sacred and Secular are now one and the same for believers. There is no such thing as 'ordinary labor'. Everything we do is to be done as unto the Lord. We are bought with a price and we are not our own. Our whole life is supposed to be a living sacrifice to God (Romans 12). Not just on Saturday, but every day.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2007/4/21 0:17Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
The seventh-day Sabbath was an important part of the law of God, as it came from His own mouth, and was written by His own finger upon stone at Sinai. See Exodus 20. When Jesus began His
work, He expressly declared that He had not come to destroy the law. "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets." Matthew 5:17.



And you will recall that being Lord of the Sabbath He was constantly being harassed for doing things on the Sabbath. When the Pharisees fled to Jamnia during the destruction of the Temple they started what today is Rabbinic Judaism. One of the key aspects of their expression of Christ-less religion is their emphasis on the Sabbath and not doing 'physical work'. The enemy has sought to keep the full understanding of Sabbath locked behind a host of related Sabbath 'no work' teachings in order to cloud the truth of what the Sabbath really means. It is not about resting from physical common work- it is about resting in Christ. And we will rest in Him for all eternity (Heb 4).

There is no way to substitute resting on Saturday for resting in Christ.




_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2007/4/21 0:25Profile
ChrisJD
Member



Joined: 2006/2/11
Posts: 2895
Philadelphia PA

 Re:

Hi everyone.


I'd like to share something if I may in regards to how we handle and examine the Scriptures.


When people qoute from the Bible, and especially if they are attemtping to make a [b]proof[/b] of something or another, it may be nescessary for us to go back and examine the verses that are being qouted and see if anything else is there in the surrounding passages that will help us to understand what is being said more fully. One reason for this is because the verse may have been removed from its context, or other verses which define or limit it, or make the meaning more clear in some way, may be left out, for whatever reason. When that happens, a verse may appear to support some postion or other, when it doesn't.

An extreme example of this is the teacher of the [i]new age[/i] religon that I used to follow before my conversion. In his writings He qouted verses from the Bible in isolation to support his teachings on meditation. Another example of this could be someone qouting 1 Cor 15:29 to support their practice of baptizing people on behalf of the dead.


In our thread here, sscr01 says





Quote:
You can rationalize all you want. He commanded us to keep the seventh day Sabbath:



"If thou turn away thy foot from the Sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day: and call the Sabbath, a delight, the holy of the Lord, honurable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words: Then shalt thou delight thyself in the Lord; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it." Isa 58:13,14.

This is quite a promise!




If we were to read this passage in isolation, and take the comments that are made along with it, you might get the impression that the believer in Christ is here promised something for observing the 7th day sabbath.

But look at what is missing in the qoute here, from verse one of the chapter:


[b][color=000000] Cry aloud, spare not, lift up thy voice like a trumpet, and shew my people their transgression, and the house of Jacob their sins.[/color][/b]


[i]...the [b]house of Jacob[/b] their sins[/i]


See that? When we go back and look at who God is actually adressing in this passage through the prophet, some things fall into place that would not appear otherwise. It makes sense here then, that God would make a promise of blessing to [b]those people He had covenanted with[/b] regarding thier obedience to His Laws, in particular here regarding observance of the 7th day sabbath.


Way back in the book of Deuteronomy, in chapter 28 we read:



[b][color=000000]And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to observe and to do all his commandments which I command thee this day, that the Lord thy God will set thee on high above all nations of the earth[/color][/b]




[i]...the Lord thy God will set thee on high above all nations of the earth[/i]


Looking at that last phrase here, there is a striking similarity to it and what we read in this passage that sscr01 has qouted from Isaiah chapter 58...


[i]...and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth[/i]


And this makes sense, becuase again, verse one of chapter 58 tells us that these things were being spoken to [b]the house of Jacob[/b], the same people God had made a covenant with through Moses, and to whom he had promised such blessings upon their obedience to His commands, one of which was observance of the 7th day sabbath.



[b][color=000000]And the Lord said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel. And he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments. [/color][/b] -Exodus 34:28



Now brothers and sisters, I am not meaning to imply here that passages like this, or even this one itself, do not or can not have an application to us. I certainly believe they do. But as to the nature and extent of those applications, I say we must use caution and examine them in their context and in the context of scripture as a whole. This example before us no exception.



Chris


_________________
Christopher Joel Dandrow

 2007/4/21 0:27Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Jesus severely condemned the Pharisees as hypocrites for pretending to love God, while at the same time they made void
one of the Ten Commandments by their tradition. The keeping of
Sunday is only a tradition of men.



Acts 20 and I Cor. 16 deal with the churches gathering on Sunday the first day of the week. Mark 16:9 and a host of other significant NT events took place on Sunday.

Again Paul said that some esteem every day alike and others one day above another. Either way they do what they do as unto the Lord. We are to allow for these differences in convictions within the Body; but we are not to allow them to become doubtful disputations. We need to be charitable to one another and allow God to lead. And when He leads it is always towards a life walking in the Spirit, yielding the fruit of the Spirit, and living a charitable life against which there is no law.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2007/4/21 0:42Profile
sscr01
Member



Joined: 2004/11/29
Posts: 275


 Re:

The New Covenant is the Old Covenant written in our hearts and minds. The same Covenant, in a different place:

"A NEW HEART also will I give you, and a NEW SPIRIT will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. And I will put MY SPIRIT within you, and CAUSE YOU to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments and do them." Ezek 36:26,27.

When we have a new heart, and His Spirit within us, He enables us to walk in His commandments - when we walk in the Spirit, we do not sin, or, "transgress the law." 1 John 3:4.

We are to die, daily and crucify the flesh with it's passions and lusts, so that, the new man might be set free! There is no bondage here, but, liberty!

As I said before, when Jesus gave us the "Two Greatest Commandments," He was quoting the law:

"And thou shalt love the Lord with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." Deut 6:5

"...thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." Lev 19:18.

These two commandments, are a summation of The Ten. If we love the Lord, supremely, we will keep the first four. If we love our neighbour as ourselves, we will, also, keep the last six.

"By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous." 1 John 5:2,3.

Jesus said, "If ye love me, keep my commandments."

"And this is love, that we walk after his commandments." 2 John 6

"And hereby we do know that we know him, IF we keep his commandments. He that saith, I KNOW HIM, and keepeth not his commandments is a LIAR, and the truth (Jesus: John 14:6; the law: Ps 119:142; and ALL His commandments: Ps 119:151) is not in him." 1 John 2:3,4.

This Scripture says, that, we may say, that, we know Him, but, if we do not keep his commandments, we are liars, and do not have His Covenant written in our hearts and minds - the New Covenant. Jer 31:31-34; Heb 8:10.

"Who forgiveth all thine iniquities: who healeth all thy diseases...As far as the east is from the west, so far hath he removed our transgressions from us...To such as keep his covenant, and to those that REMEMBER his commandments to do them." Ps 103.

"And being made perfect, He became the author of eternal life, unto all them that obey Him." Heb 5:9.

"And the dragon (Satan) was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus." Rev 12:17

"Here is the patience of the SAINTS: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus." Rev 14:12.

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; to him that overcometh will I give to eat of the TREE OF LIFE, which is in the midst of the paradise of God." Rev 2:7.

"Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have RIGHT to the TREE OF LIFE, AND MAY ENTER IN through the gates into the city." Rev 22:14.

The Apostle John at the very end of the Book of books, makes a connection between keeping His commandments and entering Heaven.





 2007/4/21 1:04Profile
Matt122004
Member



Joined: 2007/4/20
Posts: 2


 Re:

Yes, "HERE ARE THEY THAT KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS.." - Revelation

The bible shows that the Sabbath was made in the CREATION WEEK, it was made for ALL MANKIND and also, Collosians mentions the abolishing of SABBATHS. Plural. It's refering to the sabbath festivals.

Now, you may say, but othe translations mention SABBATH, singuler.

Well, look before that verse, it mentions HANDWRITING of ORDINANCES that were AGAINST us.

However, the bible has many verses where even JESUS said that the SABBATH was NOT against us but to HELP us. It also was not a handwritten ordinance by MOSES, it was by God!

-Matt

 2007/4/21 1:25Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
"And this is love, that we walk after his commandments." 2 John 6



I am trying to see how you keep making the connection to the teachings of our Lord; i.e., "His commandments" and the Ten Commandments given at Sinai?

Keeping the Ten Commandments is not the same thing as walking in the Spirit. Jesus pointed to the rich young ruler as an example. He kept the commandments and yet God had a controversy with him. That controversy centered in his possessions. His unwillingness to turn loose of his things revealed within him the very spirit of disobedience that works in the children of wrath. It's not about following 10 commandments; it is about being utterly submitted to God by nature. This can only come about through a John 3:3 born again experience.

Our expression of the Sabbath today is light years beyond resting from so-called (but non-existent) ordinary labor. Our rest in Christ and our baptism into Him is the full expression of Sabbath. This is no different than Him being our 'covering' or any other fulfillment of a type and shadow of the Old Testament. We don't lay hands on a scape goat today and confess our sins- Christ has fulfilled that. God has carried away our sins through the cross.

At the root of this is a fundamental misunderstanding of the Gospel and the NEW Covenant. He taketh away the first that He may establish the second. Jeremiah 31:33 deals with God writing His Torah within our hearts. Some Messianic Jews will tell you that that includes much of the 613 Laws. I disagree. What God is seeking to do is establish within us the personality of Christ.

This is the 'work' that we believe on the Son of God. And that 'work' is to 'rest' in Him that we might be found in Him not having our own righteousness; but that which is of the faith of Christ, the righteousness of God by faith.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2007/4/21 7:02Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
Independence, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
The bible shows that the Sabbath was made in the CREATION WEEK, it was made for ALL MANKIND and also, Collosians mentions the abolishing of SABBATHS. Plural. It's refering to the sabbath festivals.



This cannot be possible because the Colossians were never under- nor did they practice those festivals as many of them required a pilgrimage to Jerusalem to fulfill; especially Yom Kipper the Day of AtOneMent. Paul wanted to go to Jerusalem before Pentecost, etc. Why? Because folk journeyed to Jerusalem for the feasts. The Colossians came out of paganism for the most part. Paul magnified his office as the Apostle to the Gentiles.

The Judaizers would come around and compel the Gentiles to live as do the Jews. Circumcision, etc. Paul withstood Peter to the face for doing this. Meat, drink, new moon, and Sabbath days are all just that. This is the simplest expression of Judaism. Don't eat non-kosher foods, keep the sabbath, and get circumcised. Paul said that if we build again the things that we destroyed we make ourselves a transgressor. The whole of Hebrews of written to prevent the Jews from going back into a form of the Mosaic system. The warnings are numerous and dreadful. Paul said, "I am afraid of you lest I have labored in vain! Ye who come under the law have fallen from grace."

So I will stand fast in the liberty with which Christ has made me free and will not be entangled again with the yoke of bondage; i.e. the covenant given at Sinai. This was the Ten Commandments. I will live a life in the Spirit fulfilling the law by nature by walking in love.


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2007/4/21 7:13Profile





©2002-2020 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Affiliate Disclosure | Privacy Policy