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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : False Prophets: Isaiah & Jonah??

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KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Hmmmm... I didn't notice the title of the link. Pretty sad.


_________________
Jimmy H

 2007/4/12 11:46Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

I hadn't noticed the title of the link either. You could agree the chart without giving way to Open Theology but to title the chart as Jesse has is something of a giveaway!

Over here supporters of Open Theology tend to come from the supporters of Finney's theology. There can be a logical link between the two.

However this does not mean that God is impervious to our prayer or our repentance.“At what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to pluck up, and to pull down, and to destroy it; If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them. And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it; If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.”
(Jer 18:7-10 KJVS)

and the classic...
“And Jonah began to enter into the city a day’s journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown.”
(Jonah 3:4 KJVS)

“And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not.”
(Jonah 3:10 KJVS)


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2007/4/12 17:53Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Where Open Theism falls apart is that it fails to really take seriously into account that God's predestined plan and foreknowledge are perfectly in keeping with man's free will. For, God has known what man will do and the choices he will make, and God has thus planned accordingly. So, God forknew that man would fall, planned before the foundations of the world the means by which he would restore mankind. It's really not very complicated.

If you think about it, Open Theism is in some ways like Calvinism. Whereas Calvinism exalts the sovereignty of God at the cost of the man's free will, Open Theism exalts man's freedom of choice at the cost of God's sovereignty.

Sadly, I can't say it surprises me that Jesse holds to Open Theism. His preaching so far as I have heard on the web and read in his newsletter, has for quite some time exalted the individual and their ability to make a choice for God. This is in right keeping with his adoption of Finney's theology. And even though I'm an Arminian in my theology and believe that choice is important, I must say, I often wonder where faith truly comes into Jesse's theology. And I mean a faith that is grounded in a personal revelation of Jesus Christ as Lord, as One who is alive from the dead. I fear such is not the crux of Jesse's preaching. Rather, he's simply seems to be a mere preacher of morality-- as so many campus preachers these days are-- instead of a preacher of the Gospel of Jesus Christ.


_________________
Jimmy H

 2007/4/12 18:47Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Quote:
If you think about it, Open Theism is in some ways like Calvinism. Whereas Calvinism exalts the sovereignty of God at the cost of the man's free will, Open Theism exalts man's freedom of choice at the cost of God's sovereignty.



May I ask you to rephrase this to say: "Open Theism is in some ways like Hyper-Calvinism. Whereas Hyper-Calvinism exalts the sovereignty of God at the cost of the man's free will..."

Because I am a Calvinist and I agree with your earlier statement:

Quote:
Where Open Theism falls apart is that it fails to really take seriously into account that God's predestined plan and foreknowledge are perfectly in keeping with man's free will. For, God has known what man will do and the choices he will make, and God has thus planned accordingly. So, God forknew that man would fall, planned before the foundations of the world the means by which he would restore mankind. It's really not very complicated.

 2007/4/12 18:52Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Jay,

Sure, I agree with your rephrasing :)


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Jimmy H

 2007/4/12 19:06Profile
vico
Member



Joined: 2005/5/25
Posts: 258


 Re:

In recent happenings i have noticed something that grieves my heart, indeed i believe that grieves many hearts, those hearts that are set aflame for God's glory. A great attack on the Word of God is taking place in our day, and lately it seems to have been getting worse, or maybe its just now that i've been noticing it so much. The light in the lives of those that truly love God and have shone out above most, have been somewhat dimmed by a subtle and deceptive assault on their relationship to the Word of God.

This attack is widespread among the brethren, and many have been allured into the assailant's trap.
The enemy has sought to divide the Church, the body of Christ, by dividing the Word of God.

I hear it all the time, "what do you believe about this doctrine?" or, "where do you stand on this theology?" and there are usually two opposing sides that claim to have their beliefs backed up with scripture, and they will spend hours if you are willing to explain why they and others like-minded with them are the right ones. It has divided many fellowships, friendships, and individual hearts. Why???

What ever happened to Jesus? You know, he used to be the centre of Christianity! Now the centre of it all is your understanding of Him.
It not so much a question anymore of whether you are saved or not, the angels can celebrate over that. We want to know what your understanding of Salvation is. It doesn't matter if you are free from sin, no one will rejoice over that anymore. We want to know, is it possible for a Christian to sin? Or, are we now morally perfect? How do you understand this freedom????

Predestination or Eternal Security? Sinning Saints or Moral Perfection? Pre-trib or Post-trib? KJV only or anti-KJV? Dispensationalist or Replacement theologist? and the list goes on and on and on. There are so many arguments that split and divide us, and the crazy thing is it doesn't really matter. But nevertheless we gauge one anothers holiness and spirituality by the doctrine they believe and by the standards they uphold. What ever happened to Jesus? Christ our Saviour seems to be lost in all of this, and of those who do seek Him many do it for personal gain.

It was after a night spent discussing differing doctrinal views with some brothers that God revealed to me a truth in His word that blew me away. I was discouraged pondering these thoughts and seemingly contradictory doctrines when it seems that God spoke to me. Not with an audible voice but with a scripture that came to mind But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. (John 14:26)

And with that came another scripture, But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. (1John 2:27)

And then i happened upon this passage of Scripture in 1Corinthians 2 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.


We need not that any man should teach us because we have been given the Spirit of God. He will teach us all things and bring to our remembrance the things of Christ. No one can teach us the things of God because no one knows God except the Spirit of God, He searches out the deep things of God and reveals them to us. If we have the Spirit of God in us (which you do if you are truly save) than He has promised to do this. Our problem is that we too often follow after what man has said, and man's interpretation of the Bible. This is not to say that we are not to regard what man has said but that in all things that we read or listen to should be through the Spirit and He will teach us through a man. So in all things listen to the Spirit only!

Many of the arguments that are brought up today have two or more very opposing views. But in reading through the Bible with this new light (Having the Spirit guide and direct my reading and disregarding all things that i might have heard on the passage i am reading) I have found that usually neither side of the division is correct, and is usually only half of the truth. I would usually study each argument and decide rationally or see which had the most scripture to back it up, and i would follow that and then adopt it as my own. But i now see how enemy has split up the Word of God and we have gone right along with it, we run over to one side hold up one half of the truth and disregard the other, and those that uphold it.

Listen, just because we can't reconcile two seeming opposing ideas does not mean that it isn't true. Truth does not need us to understand it in order for it to be truth. Nevertheless, if we cannot come up with a good reasonable explanation for a seeming contradiction, we grab one side of it and throw down the other. We lean too much on our own understanding. We want to be able to figure things out, we want to put God and His Word in a box and put them on a shelf along side other things we've been able to wrap our understanding around. But you can't! and if you think that you have ever grasped any aspect of God or His nature, know this, you have failed! Because you can't! 2 And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know. (1Corinthians 8:2)

God is so much higher than we are, His ways are past finding out. the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! (Romans 11:33)



Another thing, why is it that once again Men of God from the past are being criticized and labeled??? What is wrong with Charles Finney? ok, so maybe i don't agree with all of his doctrine, but that didn't stop God from using him. Funny isn't it how we are more picky than God when it comes to the exactness doctrine! Not just Finney, but others as well. Lately i have heard criticism of many great men of God. John Wesley, Martin Luther, both men who had shortcomings, but God used them nonetheless. Not too long ago I heard someone label Andrew Murray and Watchman Nee as Heretics! What?!?! Brethren, beware of what you say about men that God has used. They were not perfect, but they were definitely closer to the heart of God than most of us will ever be, despite their seeming error. So i ask you once again, beware what you say, we will all give an account of our words before God.

We may not agree with everything brother Jesse has to say, but let us stop this needless dividing of God's Word. In plain words i tell you that many of these arguments that we, even i have debated are against the Word of God, and irrelevant to it. We have added so many things to His Word, we have pulled it apart and destroyed it for the purpose that God has intended it for. After all this is the WORD OF GOD, and many of us have no idea what that means, that these are the very words of God, we have no right to form our own opinions about them. Lets listen to the Spirit and be guided by Him in it at all times. Oh, the Word of God is so precious!

It is this very thing of dividing the Word God that has divided us. This is not the will of God.
Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment. (1Corinthians 1:10) Seems kind of impossible eh? With God all things are possible.

Let us pray that God would reveal His own word to us, apart from our own knowledge and understanding and from mens teachings and doctrines.

God bless us all with fresh revelation in the knowledge of HIM! May our gaze be upon the Saviour. After all, it is all about Him.

I love you Lord.

the least of all,
~vico

 2007/4/12 20:21Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Vico, I appreciate your heart felt words on this matter but you must know that there is nothing wrong with healthy debate on doctrine. It is possible to grow closer to God through this interaction because I am proof.

It is when the debate gets heated and nasty that we all lose.

 2007/4/12 20:45Profile









 Re:

So... where do dinosaurs fit in all this?

Hehe.

 2007/4/12 21:05
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Another thing, why is it that once again Men of God from the past are being criticized and labeled??? What is wrong with Charles Finney? ok, so maybe i don't agree with all of his doctrine, but that didn't stop God from using him.


As I am probably the most outspoken concerning Finney on this forum I thought I ought to respond to this comment.

I have never criticised Finney, I criticise his teaching. I have never questioned the authenticity of the work accomplished under him, I question his reasoning and his methodology. I have never questioned his motives, his character, his devotion to God; but I do question his whole approach to theology and the scripture.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2007/4/13 2:43Profile









 Re:

Quote:
We may not agree with everything brother Jesse has to say, but let us stop this needless dividing of God's Word. In plain words i tell you that many of these arguments that we, even i have debated are against the Word of God, and irrelevant to it. We have added so many things to His Word, we have pulled it apart and destroyed it for the purpose that God has intended it for. After all this is the WORD OF GOD, and many of us have no idea what that means, that these are the very words of God, we have no right to form our own opinions about them. Lets listen to the Spirit and be guided by Him in it at all times. Oh, the Word of God is so precious!




I will agree that pointless arguing about God's Word is just not profitable, and posting a thread on here just to prove that we are right and everyone else is wrong, is contentious and prideful.

But there is absolutely nothing wrong with pointing out false doctrine and defending correct doctrine.

My reason:

If I came on this forum about 10 or 11 years ago, when I was a younger Christian, I would have been heavily influenced by someone like Jesse. He is very zealous for the ministry, and he is courageous in preaching open-air like he does. Simply by looking at what he does, I would have thought that what he was saying must be true. I would have thought, “Hey man he's out there doing it, he must know what he's talking about."

Unfortunately, because his theology is man centered and depends so much upon the strength of man, it would have influenced me in a negative way. I used to read Finney back then. I used to listen to tape after tape of mainly "revival" preachers. (This of course was before the internet...at least in my world)

I lived under condemnation! I had no power to walk with God. It was not until I started reading Charles Spurgeon and hearing the Gospel, that I started getting free. It was not until the ministry that I was under started really preaching about who we are in Christ that I started to walk with God in freedom.

Yes I sought God by myself, but I have learned we are not an island and we do need good teachers (dead or alive) in our lives that lead us in the Word properly.

My point:

I thank God for those that come on here and defend the Truth...Those that defend correct doctrine, without pride or contention. It is necessary, because this forum is accessible world wide and I am sure there are many young believers that come on here and can be very easily influenced.

 2007/4/13 6:58





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