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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Are we born into sin?

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KingJimmy
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Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

If we are born with "original sin" then we have a sin nature and we are predamned.



Correct!

Ephesians 2:3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were [u]by nature children of wrath[/u], even as the rest


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Jimmy H

 2007/4/13 19:00Profile
Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
KingJimmy wrote:
Quote:
If we are born with "original sin" then we have a sin nature and we are predamned.

Correct!

Ephesians 2:3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were [u]by nature children of wrath[/u], even as the rest

"predamnation" is damning without cause.
Why would a just God condemn without cuase?
Man must [b]choose[/b] to reject HIM before man is damned.

Ephesians 2:3 says nothing about precondemnation.

Furthermore, if precondemnation is true, there is no responsability for going to hell, since I was going there to start with.

 2007/4/13 19:54Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3708
Ca.

 Re:

"the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness."


1 Corinthians 1:27-31 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: That no flesh should glory in his presence. But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.

All humans are: foolish things, weak things, base things, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:

To confound, mighty, and flesh that glories in self. Things that are not are all mankind lost in sin and separated from God. These are to bring for the things God has prepared for His children before the foundation of the World. If these things were prepared before the foundation then why were they prepared? These sinful base things of the world would be in His children already, before Adam was created. Adam was innocent without a nature, only an image of God, Adam chose his and our nature which was already in the mind of God, lest there be no evil tree.
Then kicked out of the garden to keep from becoming permanently evil. The Plan of God was begun. That is in Christ the Hope of Glory.
Ephesians 1:4-6 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Ephesians 1:3-5 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

God wanted offspring's of Himself and no created being could do this, Satan proved it.

He has proved to all mankind that no created being can please God. That is why we were born of God, then recreated in Christ Jesus and new creatures, a new creation race of people, born again in Christ, that have the Nature of God, not created Satan.

Who are we to tell God that He is not justified in Himself to choose all things for His pleasure, that He could have the children in His house that would please Him, not us. Ultimately pleasing us also for who He has made us to be in Christ Jesus.

Romans 9:17-24 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

I don't care how He has done it but I guarantee God can say He is righteous and perfect and justified in everything He has done, and all man will say the same when Jesus Christ comes to this earth and sits on the throne of David in the New Jerusalem come down from heaven with the born again Christ Ones, whom He has made new creatures in Christ.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2007/4/13 23:49Profile
jimp
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Joined: 2005/6/18
Posts: 1481


 Re:

hi, he that beieveth in Him is not condemned, but he that believeth not is condemned already...jimp

 2007/4/14 3:32Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

Why would a just God condemn without cause?



It is not without cause. For we are born, by nature, children of Adam. We are made in the image of Adam. We are by nature rebellious towards God. For in sin, I was conceived. From day one, I've been inclined to rebel against a just and holy God.

Quote:

Ephesians 2:3 says nothing about precondemnation.



That's rather interesting Logic if I've ever seen it. For it says that prior to our relationship with God, we were by our very nature, targets of His wrath. For as Eph 2:12 says, at that time we were separate from Christ, without hope, and without God! "Without hope!" That's a rather grim future to have from the get-go!


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Jimmy H

 2007/4/14 6:52Profile
Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
KingJimmy wrote:
Quote:
Why would a just God condemn without cause?

It is not without cause. For we are born, by nature, children of Adam. We are made in the image of Adam.

We are made in the image of GOD.
[b]Matthew 22:21[/b] [color=990000]They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.[/color]
The coin had Caesar's image on it so therefor, render to Caesar what ever has his image on it;
Man has God's image so render yourself to God, because you are in the image of GOD.

Quote:
For it says that prior to our relationship with God, we were by our very nature, targets of His wrath. For as Eph 2:12 says, at that time we were separate from Christ, without hope, and without God! "Without hope!" That's a rather grim future to have from the get-go!



If [b]Eph 2:3[/b], [color=990000]By nature the children of wrath,[/color] means born with a sinful nature and under the wrath of God because of that nature, then it follows that every child who dies in infancy goes to hell where he must forever suffer the awful punishment and wrath of God.
If Children are exempt from Gods wrath, Tell me why, if man is "by nature the children of wrath"
What makes them exempt?

I see that [b]Eph 2:3[/b] means that we put our selves in that state of wrath by ignorance of the will of God.

Because, it is only our [b]nature[/b] to follow the effections of our will, which effects individual choices that we make.

We chose to rebel and sin, because we love ourselves or the world more than God, because of that, we cannot consistently do things that please Him.
Our decisions are in bondage to our effections so that we only do what we have favor towards.
Love God, hate sin; Love yourself and the world, hate God.

Being [color=990000]by nature the children of wrath,[/color] is the consequence of haveing no desire to please God.

That is what [b]Eph 2:1[/b] means in that we [color=990000]walk according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air.[/color] [b]Eph 2:2[/b]

This can not include infants, because they can not choose to [color=990000]walk according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air.[/color]

 2007/4/14 23:49Profile









 Re:

[b]THE BLAME GAME[/b]

The [b]blame game[/b] hasn't ended since the garden. Adam blamed Eve for his sin and Eve blamed the devil for her sin. And today people blame Adam, Eve, and the devil for their sin!

Sinners are still today trying to blame their sin on someone else, either on society, circumstances, nature, or Adam.

It seems that those who do not profess Christ often blame their sin on society or circumstances, but those who do profess Christ blame their sin on nature or Adam.

The blame game needs to stop. People need to take responsibility for their own choices.

This is a tract I wrote for Christians on this subject:

[b]SINNERS BY CHOICE OR BY CONSTITUTION?[/b]

May you know the truth and may the truth set you free! (John 8:32)

Merriam-Webster’s 11th collegiate dictionary defines:

Choice: “the act of choosing: selecting; power of choosing: option.”

Constitution: “the physical makeup of the individual especially with respect to the health, strength, and appearance of the body. The structure, composition, or physical make up, or nature of something.”

Do individuals become sinners by their own personal, moral choices? Or do individuals become sinners by their inherited physical constitution? The answer to such a theological question is of vital importance, as it directly affects the way we view sin and sinners; God and His government; the wisdom or reasonableness of God‘s requirements and the justice of His wrath.

Choices are voluntary, inherited constitutions are involuntary. Choices are optional, inherited constitutions are unavoidable. If it’s by inherited constitution that individuals become sinners, then it’s not by choice. If it is by choice that individuals become sinners, then it is not by constitution. If it’s by necessity, then it is not by liberty. And if it is by liberty, then it is not by necessity.

Those who have advocated a constitutional sin often attempt to use Ephesians 2:3 in support of their doctrine: Eph 2:3 “Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lust of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as the others.”

[b]Here is some awesome information. The Greek word for “by nature” is “phusis”. The English translations divide “phusis” into two words, “by” and “nature” but in the Greek it is one word. Strong’s says “phusis” can properly and accurately be translated as “use constitution” or “usage nature“ or simply “by nature“. [/b]

In context of the whole verse this passage means that those who choose to walk after “the lust of our flesh“, to gratify “the desires of the flesh“, are therefore children of wrath “by nature”, that is, they are children of wrath because of their usage of their constitution, because of the usage of their nature. “Children of wrath” (Eph 2:3) are very simply “children of disobedience” (Eph 2:1) who are wrongly using their constitutions.

Only what is physical, our fleshly bodies, is hereditary. (Gen 1:21, 1Cor 15:38-39, Heb 2:14) While we inherit our physical bodies from our parents, which are now subjected to death and disease because of Adams sin (1Corinthians 15:21-22), we do not inherit our parents guilt. (2Kings 14:6, Deu 24:16, 2Chr 25:4, Eze 18:2-4, Eze 18:19-20) Neither do our souls come from our parents but rather our souls come directly from God in it’s spiritual condition. (Ezekiel 18:4) That is why a child is neither guilty of evil nor praiseworthy of good until he himself is born and make’s his own choices. (Rom 9:11) And so each man is responsible for “the things done in his body”, and is judged “according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad”. (2Cor 5:10) In punishment or reward, it is all according to their own works. (2Cor 11:15, Rev 22:12)

The flesh has lusts, cravings, or desire, which can be gratified through the forbidden means of sin. (Gen 3:6) These lusts are at first involuntary lusts, cravings, or desires, being strictly physical and not moral. There are involuntary physical desires and then there are intentional committals of the will. One is involuntary while the other is intentional. The former is physical, the latter is moral. But involuntary physical impulses do not bring forth moral (or immoral) sin until the will selfishly serves them supremely (James 1:15) instead of self sacrificially serving the highest well-being of others. (Luke 10:27). Physical temptation becomes immoral sin when the will yields itself to it.

It was the natural, physical lusts, cravings, or desires of the flesh which were the source of temptation for Eve in the Garden. (Gen 3:6) She “saw that it was good for food”, “pleasant to the eye”, and “desired to make one wise”. These were all natural, physical appetites for food and wisdom which she sought to gratify through sin or disobedience to God. This was the first case in history when a human being submitted their will to serve their flesh supremely rather then submitting their will to the truth of God revealed to their minds. This was the first case in the history of a human individual doing what feels good over against what she knew was good. And this is exactly what every sinner does.

Sin is a corruption of yourself or a personal choice to corrupt yourself. (Exo 32:7, Deu 9:12, Deu 32:5, Jdg 2:19, Hos 9:19) Sin is a corruption of what was meant to be good. (Gen 1:31) Walking in the flesh bears fruit unto death. (Rom 7:5) The fleshly lusts wage war against the soul. (1Peter 2:11) To be carnally “minded“ (phronema = purposed), is death. But to be spiritually “minded“ (phronema = purposed), is life and peace. (Rom 8:6) Those who are carnally purposed, “do mind [phroneo =interest oneself in] the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit [interest themselves in] the things of the Spirit. (Rom 8:5)

The lust of the flesh, or desires of the sensibilities, are the source of temptation for sin. (Rom 7:21) Sin consists in selfishness which is being self-purposed, self-interested, self-serving or self-willed. (Isaiah 14:13-14, 2Peter 2:10) This is when one’s will is for their own happiness supremely. But the revelation of moral truth presented to the mind or intelligence, as revealed by the Spirit of God, is an influence towards obedience and submission. (Rom 7:12-13) Obedience consists in being self sacrificial, God-purposed, God-interested, God-serving, or God-willed. (Luke 9:23) This is when one’s will serves God and not self. (2Cor 5:15)

The demands of the flesh as imposed by the sensibilities and the demands of the Spirit as presented to the intelligence are contrary on to another, being hostile towards each other, being at an antithesis. (Rom 7:23) The former demands self indulgence and self-service supremely, the latter demands self denial and God-service supremely. (Rom 7:25)

“Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.” (Rom 6:13) The physical constitution of man is a mere tool or an “instrument” without any inherit moral character in and of itself. The body is properly and strictly neither moral nor immoral, good nor bad, sinful or holy, in and of itself apart from it’s usage as controlled by the human will. As a tool or “instrument“, the body or “members” can be an “instrument of sin” or an “instrument of righteousness“, depending on what the human will “yields” it to. (Rom 6:13)

“As ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.” (Rom 6:19) “For he that sows to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that sows to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.” (Gal 6:8)

Christians still live “in the flesh” (2Cor 10:3), but they do not live “according” to it. (2Cor 10:2) The physical body that Christians have is the same exact physical body they had when they were children of wrath (Php 3:11-12), and it will remain the same exact body until they die (2Peter 1:14) until the resurrection when they receive a glorified body. (1Cor 15:53-54) While the constitution itself is the same, the usage of the constitution has changed. Christians have obeyed the command to “present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service” (Rom 12:1). “And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.“ (Gal 5:24) Christians are those who “let not sin reign in” their “mortal body” to “obey it in the lusts thereof”. (Rom 6:12) Christians have gone from being governed by the flesh (Col 3:7) to being governed by Christ. (Col 1:13) They have cleansed themselves from the filthiness of the flesh. (2Cor 7:1)

Sin is when the will is submitted to the sensibilities, to the lusts, desires, or affections of the flesh (IJohn 2:16), over against the moral demands of God clearly perceived by the mind. (John 1:9, John 16:8) Sinners do what “feels good,” seeking their own pleasure and happiness as the end in which they are in pursuit. But obedience is when the will is submitted to what is “logikos“ or “reasonable“ or “rational“, when the will performs it‘s “reasonable service“. (Rom 6:13) This is when a sinner comes unto God to “reason together” (Isaiah 1:18), when he comes to his senses (Luke 15:17), when the sinner “considers and turns” (Eze 18:28) when the will submits to the intellect, or to the moral truth of God which the Spirit reveals to the Mind. (Acts 17:11)

Christians do what they “know is good” for the glory of God and the well-being of others. (Matt 22:37) Those who walk in the Spirit do not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. (Gal 5:16) A single individual cannot serve both the flesh and the Spirit, serve both self and God, or serve any two Masters at the same time. (Matt 6:24, James 3:11) It is by willfully escaping “the corruption that is in the world” that comes by obeying “lust“, by yielding unto the moral demands presented by the Spirit, that we become “partakers of the divine nature“. (2Peter 1:14)

The bad nature (or old man, Rom 6:6, Col 3:8-9) is when you submit your will to the sensibilities (Eph 4:22), when you use your body as an instrument for sin. (Rom 6:13) But the divine nature (or new man, Eph 4:24, Col 3:1-2, Col 3:12-14) is when you submit your will to your intellect (Col 3:10), when you use your body as an instrument for righteousness. (Rom 6:13) This is when a person “does by nature the things contained in the law.” (Rom 2:14)

The mind was designed to receive revelation or moral truth from the Spirit of God. (Rom 2:15) The will was designed to be under submission or obedience to the mind, to obey it‘s moral demands. (Rom 6:17) And the sensibilities were meant to serve the will and mind, to wholesomely and wonderfully experience and enjoy life. (Ecc 5:18, 1Tim 6:17) The will was always suppose to rule over the sensibilities. (Gen 4:7) But sinners have established the gratification of the sensibilities as supreme, having subjected the will to be in submission or obedience to the impulses and pleasures of the sensibilities. (Php 3:19) And they have suppressed in unrighteousness the truth of God as revealed to the mind. (Rom 8:1, 2:8; 2Thes 2:10, 2:12). And so sinners have “perverted that which was right” (Job 33:27), using for evil what was intended for good.

Sinners are enemies of God through wicked works (Col 1:21), because they are obeying the “lust of the flesh” or wrongly using their natures, constitutions, or faculties (Eph 2:3). Because sinners have indulged the flesh, rather then mortify it’s members, they have come under the wrath of God. (Col 3:5-6)

All sin in essences consists in a wrong moral choice (1John 3:4) to serve self as opposed to serving God‘s glory and the well-being of others (Luke 10:27). This is why there is no scriptural reason for any sort of “physical” regeneration in this life in order to be saved, because there is no such thing as “physical” sin, but only a physical temptation which attempts to direct the will. (Gal 4:14, James 1:14) The flesh, with it’s lusts, is the source of temptation, but it is not sin itself. And so the body does not need to be removed before we can be saved, or before we can have victory over sin in this life (Gal 1:4), but rather God’s grace teaches us to ‘deny ungodliness and worldly lust” that we would be “godly in this present world”. (Titus 2:12) And so Christians are to glorify God while in their physical bodies. (1Cor 6:20) Whether absent or present in the body they are to be acceptable unto God. (2Cor 5:9)

Rather then a physical regeneration, the Spirit of God brings about a “moral” regeneration at conversion (2Cor 4:16), because all sin is a moral choice, all sin consists in sinning. (1John 3:4) Sin is willful rebellion against what the mind knows is right, against perceived moral knowledge. (Heb 10:26, James 4:17) Sin is always avoidable, always being optional. (1Cor 10:13) The Spirit changes our will (Eze 18:31, 36:26), not by force or by might, but through the influence of truth upon the mind by the Spirit (John 6:44, John 12:32, John 17:19, Titus 3:5), so that we can be saved in this life. (1John 3:14) And when God changes man's will, the whole man is changed and he is a new creature! (2Cor 5:17)

But the Spirit does not change our physical bodies, in this life, in order for us to be saved. Conversion is not the reception of any new faculties, but it is the proper use of the present faculties. (Rom 6:13, 6:19) Christians are spiritually, not physically, transformed in this life. (Rom 12:2) This is truly what it is to be “born again” (John 3:3) or to be “born of the Spirit”. (John 3:6) And we will receive a glorified body, which is not subjected to death and disease, in the next life. (1Cor 15:42, Php 3:21)

The choice to serve the lust of the flesh unto death or to obey the truth of the Spirit unto life is freely yours. (Deu 30:19, Gal 6:8) Turn from the idol of self unto the living God! (Thes 1:9) If you turn away from all wickedness and do what is lawful and right, God will forgive you instead of punished you. (2Chron 2:14, Eze 33:13-14) If you repent, God will give you mercy and grace because of Jesus Christ. (Acts 2:8) Those who submit their will to the Spirit, rather then the flesh, have no condemnation in Jesus Christ. (Rom 8:1) Those who obey Christ from the heart have eternal salvation. (Heb 5:9, Rom 6:17) Christ was crucified for you and rose from the dead that you might be forgiven. (Matt 16:21, 1Peter 2:24) But you must “obey the truth” to have forgiveness in Christ. (Gal 3:1) You must die to self-will. (1Cor 15:31) You must crucify your flesh. (Gal 2:20, Gal 5:24) You must forsake all. (Luke 14:33) You must deny yourself. (Matt 6:24, Mark 8:34, Luke 9:23) And you must follow Christ. (John 10:27) Choose you this day who you shall serve! (Joshua 24:15)

 2007/4/15 0:24
jimp
Member



Joined: 2005/6/18
Posts: 1481


 Re:

hi,Jesus said...Call no man good... except ? He said this because all are evil or was He wrong? the rich man said he had kept the law but passed the first test not... on the first commandment.jimp you cannot save yourself by your works for they are as filthy in the eyes of God....sin.. can't you see the tree was the knowledge of GOOD and evil.

 2007/4/15 1:09Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4807


 Re:

jimp quoted...

Quote:
he that beieveth in Him is not condemned, but he that believeth not is condemned already...



This is the choice given man by God...

At the fall, man was given to "know" both good and evil.

There are now two kingdoms. Satan entered this world as sin, his influence on man is to lead them to destruction by lieing to him.

And we also know that the world was also given the light of truth that comes by way of the Word.

So those who reject the Word are already condemned, and he that believeth in Him is not condemned.

Tyndale wrote in his prolouge of his translation of Scripture in the book of Romans...

page 216

"For how is it possible to do anything well in the sight of God, while we are yet in captiviy and bondage under the devil, and the devil possesseth us altogether and holdeth our hearts, so that we cannot once consent unto the will of God. No man therefore can prevent the spirit in doing good; but the spirit must first come and wake him out of his sleep and with the thunder of the law fear him, and show him his miserable estate and wretchedness, and make him abhor, and hate himself and to desire help, and then comfort him again with the pleasant rain of the gospel, that its to say, with the sweet promises of God in Christ, and stir up faith in him to believe the promises. Then when he believeth the promises, as God was merciful to promise, so is he true to fulfil them, and will give him the spirit and strength, both to love the will of God in Christ, and to work thereafter."

Belief or unbelief in the knowing of good and evil brings salvation or condemnation. This then determines if we are the captivity that has been set free.

In Christ
Jeff

"


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Jeff Marshalek

 2007/4/15 13:25Profile
elected
Member



Joined: 2004/11/21
Posts: 362
Tulsa OK

 Re:

Quote:
If we are born with "original sin" then we have a sin nature and we are predamned.



We are predestined before the foundation of the world but nowhere it says in the bible that God predamned the rest of mankind(that were not chosen).God made hell for demons and devil and not for his creatures.

A baby it's a dearly loved creature by God and nowhere in the bible it says that babies will go to hell because of the sin of adam but neither does it say we are born with a good nature or even weak nature. Our nature is bad from birth and not just weak.The bad choice of adam and his sin affected not only him but his children and even nature and world in general.

God doesnt hold us account for the 'original sin', he holds us responsible for our personal sins. In the day of judgment the sinner is not going to give account for the 'original sin' of Adam but for his own.

'Original sin' it's a theological term used and taught by early church fathers , and i think it's the view that has the most biblical support compared with the other options.



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Redi

 2007/4/15 13:35Profile





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