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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Are we born into sin?

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 Re:

It is very interesting to note that animals die, but we all know that animals cannot nor have sinned. But physical death is a result of Adams sin.

I think that Gordon Olson has a very interesting theory on the tree of life. His thoughts were that maybe the tree of life was not something you ate once and then lived forever, but rather something that you would continue eating and therefore continue living. That is had some physical regeneration power to sustain the body forever.

That theory gives a pretty good reason as to why even animals die because of Adams sin. Once Adam sinned, none were permitted to eat from the tree of life, and the garden was most likely totally destroyed in the flood.

That is also why babies die. Not because they have personally sinned yet, since they don't have the knowledge of right and wrong until their minds develope, not because they are evil and deserve to burn in hell, but because they inherit a physical depraved body from Adam which now has absolutely no means of sustaining itself forever.

So physical death is a direct result from Adams sin, while spiritual and eternal death are a direct result of our personal sinful choices.

 2007/4/12 19:46
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
That theory gives a pretty good reason as to why even animals die because of Adams sin. Once Adam sinned, none were permitted to eat from the tree of life, and the garden was most likely totally destroyed in the flood.


The theory seems to ignore the fact that creation is in its present state, not because it has been denied access to the tree of life but, because God has subjected it to vanity.“For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,”
(Rom 8:20 KJVS)Our creation is in its present state not because of the absence of life but because of the presence of death.

Quote:
That is also why babies die. Not because they have personally sinned yet, since they don't have the knowledge of right and wrong until their minds develope, not because they are evil and deserve to burn in hell


Do you actually know of anyone who preaches that 'babies... burn in hell'?

Additionally, it is not 'death' as absence of life that passed through to all men, but 'the death' which followed sin into the human race through 'the one man'.

Adam did not die physically on the day of his transgression but he did receive the condemnation for his transgression 'in the day' that he ate of the forbidden tree. Your view persistently avoids the revelation that... “...by the offence of the one [b]the death[/b] did reign through the one...” (Rom 5:17 YNG)

“...through one offence to all men [it is] to condemnation...” (Rom 5:18 YNG)

“...through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners...” (Rom 5:19 YNG)Condemnation is the execution of the sentence and Adam's sentence was 'death', a sentence that was executed in the 'day he ate'.

You have never answered my question, posed in several of these discussions, as to why Adam's sin had this impact on our race, rather than Eve's. It is because Adam was the federal head of our race and Eve was not. Our natural condition in first birth is because we are 'in Adam' and not 'in Eve'.


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Ron Bailey

 2007/4/13 0:27Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4807


 Re:

Gen. 3:22 Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil.

How does "knowing" good and evil in light of Scripture explain man's depravity?

You see we know that there is a spiritual world both good and bad.

2Cor. 6:14 Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? 15 And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever?

We know that either God or Satan are man's fathers. What does this say of the fall of man?

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2007/4/13 0:43Profile
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3708
Ca.

 Re:

""How does "knowing" good and evil in light of Scripture explain man's depravity?""

By Adam's choosing evil for self and thinking it was good, instead of obeying God unto the tree of Life, which is In Jesus Christ. Adam chose his own spiritual nature, the nature of the one believed and obeyed, Satan. And sin passed unto all man by death being the fulfillment of God's commandment.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2007/4/13 1:55Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4807


 Re:

Brother Phillip wrote:

Quote:
Adam chose his own spiritual nature, the nature of the one believed and obeyed, Satan.



What about us, what is Paul teaching those in Ephesians 4:

Eph. 4:17 This I say, therefore, and testify in the Lord, that you should no longer walk as the rest of the Gentiles walk, in the futility of their mind, 18 having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart; 19 who, being past feeling, have given themselves over to lewdness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.


Eph. 4:20 But you have not so learned Christ, 21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus: 22 that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts, 23 and be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.

It seems to me that this whole discussion must be centered on what purpose does God's Holy Spirit play in God's plan and also how the powers and principalities of this world interact with that plan. The flesh is subject to the Spirit or the spirits.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2007/4/13 2:20Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4807


 Re:

Eph. 6:10 Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord and in the power of His might. 11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. 13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

We do not wrestle against the flesh and blood...

There is both the Spirit of God, and the spiritual hosts of wickedness, whom do we serve? Is Paul's insight about the flesh different than what is often taught by us?

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2007/4/13 6:05Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4807


 Re:

Here is an example of the battle that rages in the heavens...

Psa. 17:1 Hear a just cause, O LORD,
Attend to my cry;
Give ear to my prayer which is not from deceitful lips.
2 Let my vindication come from Your presence;
Let Your eyes look on the things that are upright.
3 You have tested my heart;
You have visited me in the night;
You have tried me and have found nothing;
I have purposed that my mouth shall not transgress.
4 Concerning the works of men,
By the word of Your lips,
I have kept away from the paths of the destroyer.
5 Uphold my steps in Your paths,
That my footsteps may not slip.
6 I have called upon You, for You will hear me, O God;
Incline Your ear to me, and hear my speech.
7 Show Your marvelous lovingkindness by Your right hand,
O You who save those who trust in You
From those who rise up against them.

Only the Lord can keep the destroyer at bay...

In Christ
jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2007/4/13 6:26Profile
Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:

Lazarus1719 wrote:
I think that Gordon Olson has a very interesting theory on the tree of life. His thoughts were that maybe the tree of life was not something you ate once and then lived forever, but rather something that you would continue eating and therefore continue living. That is had some physical regeneration power to sustain the body forever.


In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
[b]Rev 22:2[/b] [color=990000]In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there [bthe tree of life[/b], which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and [b]the leaves of the tree [u]were[/u]for the healing of the nations[/b].[/color]

The queston reamins; Are we born into sin?
I say, no.

We are only born into corruption, dishonour, weakness, and a natural body, for all these are the attributes of being in Adam which all die,(1Co 15:22,43-44)

 2007/4/13 13:23Profile
elected
Member



Joined: 2004/11/21
Posts: 362
Tulsa OK

 Re:

"Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
And in sin my mother conceived me."
Psalm 50:7

We are sinners by choice but born in sin. Only Christ was conceived by the Holy Spirit in the womb of Mary without sin and because of that didnt inherit the fallen nature of Adam.Only He was holy from birth to physical death on the cross.He was the last Adam who came from heaven.

We dont come from heaven like Christ but from earth and our earthly father is adam and consequently we have inherited his fallen nature.
Christ didnt die on the cross and shed his blood only to redeem us from our willful sins but also from the sin that we have inherited from Adam.

We are not born sinners but in sin and seperated from God and his life. How can we be sinless when we are born if we are cut off from the source? The only way for us to be born into this world sinless was possible if Adam would have not disobeyed and sinned agaist God, then his children would have been born pure, holy, sinless with a perfect human nature.


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Redi

 2007/4/13 15:33Profile
Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
elected wrote:
We are sinners by choice but born in sin.


If we are born with "original sin" then we have a sin nature and we are predamned.

 2007/4/13 18:24Profile





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