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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Are we born into sin?

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 Re:

totallyHis wrote

"I can only suggest you get the book and read the whole story."

Your posts and your web site that only shows part of your book looks like an advertisement for your book. Looks like you are just trying to promote it and sell it.

 2007/4/9 18:15
Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
philologos wrote:
We have disputed this at length in this forum. My own conviction is that Finney and Jesse are mistaken and that we did receive something in Adam which has permanently affected human nature until it is dealt with in regeneration.


It didn't effect human nature, where do you find that in Scripture?

That thing Adam did which has permanently affected human race was death, wich is explained in Romans 8:20-21.
When Adam brought the first sin into this world, then death was passed to all men, because all people sin.(Romans 5:12)

 2007/4/9 20:27Profile
philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
It didn't effect human nature, where do you find that in Scripture?


“For as indeed [b]by the disobedience of the one man the many have been constituted sinners[/b], so also by the obedience of the one the many will be constituted righteous.”
(Rom 5:19 DRBY)


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Ron Bailey

 2007/4/10 15:00Profile
saltlicker20
Member



Joined: 2005/11/11
Posts: 57
Grand Saline, TX

 Re:

Brothers and Sisters, thank you for your help and sharing of your knowledge.

I just wanted to say that right now, I honestly have no idea which side is "correct"...everyone seems to have an opinion and scripture to back it up.

HOWEVER - Praise God! Praise God that He is so Big and Vast and Unsearchable. Praise Him for Psalm 145:3 that He can never be praised enough and that His "Greatness is Unsearchable." I am thankful for His mysteries and thankful for His gift of reasoning and intellect. I am thankful that I can not know everything about Him with this finite mind in this finite world...

So thanks again for everything brothers and sisters -but I am done reading posts and commentaries and books and articles...and am going back to simply praising the Lord, knowing that man is in sin (whichever way it comes through to us) and that souls are a small way I can "repay" a God that has has given me so much.

I love y'all.


DO
I Pet 4:2


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DO

 2007/4/10 16:27Profile
Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:

philologos wrote:
Quote:
It didn't effect human nature, where do you find that in Scripture?


“For as indeed by the disobedience of the one man the many [b][in like manner of disobedience][/b] have been constituted sinners, so also by the obedience of the one the many [in like manner of obedience] will be constituted righteous.”
(Rom 5:19 DRBY)



I don't see how we recieved from Adam anything that affected human nature.

Notice the verse before it:Romans 5:12 sais that death passed to all men, and, Romans 5:14 death reigned from Adam to Moses and, Romans 5:15 many be dead and, Romans 5:16 judgment was by one to condemnation of death and
[b]Romans 5:17-18[/b] [color=990000]For if by one man's offence [b]death reigned[/b][/color] (not sin) [color=990000]by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
[b]:18[/b] Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men [b]to condemnation[/b][/color] [[b]of death[/b]][color=990000]; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men [b]to justification of life[/b].[/color]

It sais we only recieved DEATH for the nth time.

But no, you don't want to see that it was death.

Notice How I corrected that translation that you quoted.
It must be that way because if we are made sinners involantary through the one man's disobedience, therefore, we would be made made righteous involantarily through the obedience of the One.

Tell me, why do you insist on that Adam's sin was passed to all men when the Scriptur sais that is is death?

 2007/4/10 19:31Profile
KingJimmy
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Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

How does death reign? But through sin.


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Jimmy H

 2007/4/10 21:04Profile
Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:

KingJimmy wrote:
How does death reign? But through sin.

It is not death reigned in sin;
You have it backward.
[/b]Romans 5:21[/b] [color=990000]so that even as sin reigned in death...[/color]
It is because of death, that we sin.

What is the law of sin that is in our members(Rom 7:23)?
it is death;
[b]Eze 18:4b[/b] [color=990000]the soul that sinneth, it shall die.[/color]
[b]Eze 18:20[/b] [color=990000]The soul that sinneth, it shall die[/color]
[b]Jer 31:30[/b] [color=990000]But every one shall die for his own iniquity:[/color] &
Deu 24:16, 2Ch 25:4
[b]Rom 6:23[/b] [color=990000]For the wages of sin is death;[/color]
[b]Rom 7:23-24[/b] [color=990000]But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the [b]law of sin which is in my members[/b].
[b]:24[/b] O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from [b]the body of this death[/b]?[/color]
If death is in our member that causes us to sin, then why do you insist that it is our nature.

How does God condemn someone for haveing a nature that one did not choose?

Thought we have this death that reigns in our flesh because of sin, we may have no condemnation of death when we don't walk according to the flesh, but after the Spirit because we are in Christ Jesus.

 2007/4/10 22:36Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4807


 Re:

Paul teaches in Romans 3:

Rom. 3:10 As it is written:
“There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.”
13 “Their throat is an open tomb;
With their tongues they have practiced deceit”;
“The poison of asps is under their lips”;
14 “Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.”
15 “Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16 Destruction and misery are in their ways;
17 And the way of peace they have not known.”
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

And then also in Ephesians 4


Eph. 4:17 This I say, therefore, and testify in the Lord, that you should no longer walk as the rest of the Gentiles walk, in the futility of their mind, 18 having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart; 19 who, being past feeling, have given themselves over to lewdness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

Eph. 4:20 But you have not so learned Christ, 21 if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught by Him, as the truth is in Jesus: 22 that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts, 23 and be renewed in the spirit of your mind, 24 and that you put on the new man which was created according to God, in true righteousness and holiness.

Paul points to the fact that men walk in darkness, that they follow the futility of their mind. They are afflicted because," having their understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God, because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart;"


Is this "ignorance" the source of the weakness that is in the flesh and therefore the reason for men growing in corruption?


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Jeff Marshalek

 2007/4/11 6:29Profile
jamezosn
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Joined: 2006/5/11
Posts: 19
Mexico City

 Re:

Well this has always been an interesting subject to me. I recently went to a conference by Wedge Alman from YWAM where he talked alot about things I had previously thought about concerning this subject. The idea is that if we are born to sin, and therefore have no other option but to sin from birth where is the justice in sending us to hell for sinning? There would be no justice behind sending us to hell unless we really could avoid sinning, we are not hopelessly unable to not sin, we are rather on a sloped playing field. Theres a book on this by Gregory Boyd called ¨The God of the possible¨... I havent read it yet but would like to. Anyways intersting thread.


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James Olson

 2007/4/11 9:29Profile
beenblake
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Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

Quote:
The idea is that if we are born to sin, and therefore have no other option but to sin from birth where is the justice in sending us to hell for sinning?



Quote:
How does God condemn someone for haveing a nature that one did not choose?



A person is not sent to Hell for "sinning" as you are suggesting. They are sent to Hell for committing the sin that leads to death, namely blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 12:31(NIV)
"And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven."

There is only one sin that leads to eternal damnation: not believing in Jesus Christ.

This makes perfect sense. Jesus died on the cross for all of sin. He brought forgiveness for all sin. To reject Jesus, what He did on the cross is to reject God's forgiveness. It is like a murderer standing before a judge entirely guilty saying, "I did not commit any crime. You are wrong."

To say that God is "wrong" is to claim that you are equal with God. God says, "you have sinned against me." And the sinner says, "I have not. I am good enough. I do not need forgiveness." To claim such a thing is to commit blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. For this, there is no forgiveness of sin. The person, in a sense, has dethroned God. They have claimed to be greater than or equal to God.

That is why a person is sent to Hell.

Quote:
we are not hopelessly unable to not sin, we are rather on a sloped playing field.



If that is true, then why did Jesus have to die? Why do we need to be saved?

On a sloped playing field, all you have to do is run a little harder, and maybe, just maybe, you can conquer sin on your own. This is not only a lie perpetuated by the Devil, it is what keeps so many Christians in bondage to sin.

See, what you don't understand is that anyone who is trying to conquer sin on their own, anyone who is trying to run up the sloped playing field, is calling God a lair. They are saying, "I don't need to be saved. I just need a little help. I know I can do this." They run harder and faster trying to defeat sin. They are saying, "I know I can do better the next time."

Jesus is saying, "You are completely helpless. You need to be saved. You must be born again." Not only do we practice sin, we are a sinner. Our being, our nature, is sinful.

A large part of the problem is that Christians do not understand what sin is. They think sin is simply breaking God's law. Anyone who is thinking like this is living by the law and they do not know grace. They think that sin is something we do. They see sin as simply doing something wrong. This is a dangerous idea that, if it is believed, will only keep a person in bondage. A person will either think they are "good" because they don't break God's law (like the rich man who approached Jesus), or the person will think they only need to do better next time. Either way, they don't understand that "Only God is good" as Jesus proclaimed. We are not good. We are not born good.

The reason I even know any of this to be true is because I have experienced it first hand. I have lived it. I tried many years to live God's law. I thought all I had to do is try a little harder. Then God showed me the truth: I could never do it because there was something fundamentally wrong with me. I didn't simply commit sin, I was a sinner. My acts of sin was a demonstration of a larger problem internally. Inside, I was separated from God. Because of this, I was a sinner and my behavior reflected this truth. I did what sinners do, I sinned.

Then Christ saved me. He changed me. I was transformed inside out. I was born again. I stopped smoking, fornicating, pornography, drinking, profanity, blasphemy, theft, lying, and so much more. This happened because God changed me.

Through this transformation, my nature was changed. I didn't stop sinning. God changed me. There is a big difference here. It is the work of God inside me, and not me working to please God.

I stopped trying to run up the sloped playing field, fell down hill into God's hands, He picked me and placed me at the top of the hill. I am a winner. I am victorious. I am righteous. I don't have to run anymore. It is done. Sin is dead in me. I am alive to Christ.

So, I ask, if a person is not born a sinner, then why would they need to be born again? Why experience a new birth?

In love,
Blake


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Blake Kidney

 2007/4/11 10:51Profile





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