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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Are we born into sin?

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rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4807


 Re:

Brother Ron asks this question

Quote:
You say that ‘…Their flesh was exposed. They were now creatures of flesh…’ What does that mean? Did they become creatures of flesh as a result of their disobedience or was their flesh always present but somehow hidden.



Paul teaches us about this does he not?

2Cor. 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, 3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. 4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

Also

Ezek. 16:8 “When I passed by you again and looked upon you, indeed your time was the time of love; so I spread My wing over you and covered your nakedness. Yes, I swore an oath to you and entered into a covenant with you, and you became Mine,” says the Lord GOD.

Have you ever considered what these Scriptures speak to?

In Christ
jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2007/4/9 2:18Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4807


 Re:

Brother Ron wrote:

Quote:
As far as I can understand his position is that Christ had a ‘mind according to the flesh’ which according to the revelation of scriptures
“because the mind of the flesh is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can it be:” (Rom 8:7 ASV)

This would mean that Christ ‘was not subject to the law of God’ and ‘could not be subject to the law of God’. Is this your position too?



I see here also that you have refused to consider what I wrote. You ask many questions and answer with fewer and fewer Scriptures. Why does it seem like you are trying to block revelation?



In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2007/4/9 2:23Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
totallyHis:
The Bible is full of typology, which can be seen in our “drinking Jesus’ blood” for example. The relevance of flesh and man becoming a creature of mortal flesh through the knowledge of good and evil is another one of those types. There is a flesh and blood body and there is a “flesh life” as opposed to a life surrendered to God.


You are saying it again. What does that mean ‘man becoming a creature of mortal flesh through the knowledge of good and evil’. If by 'mortal flesh' you mean capable of dying, then man became mortal through God’s punishment of his disobedience. It was not an incidental by-product of having ‘the knowledge of good and evil’. There is nothing wrong with having the knowledge of good and evil other than that God had forbidden it at the stage of man’s pilgrimage. You are making the knowledge of good and evil the problem whereas the scripture makes it plain that man is as he is as a direct act of God.

The Bible is indeed full of typology but we must not use it as a foundation for truth but as an illustration. ‘drinking his blood’ is not typology, it is metaphor. There always was a ‘flesh and blood body’ for mankind. The race cannot be without such a body. Man’s flesh and blood body is inevitable and necessary to the purposes of God. You seem to see the ‘flesh’ as latent in the body only to be revealed by man’s disobedience. This is a mistaken view.

Quote:
Their new-found knowledge of good and evil made them “like God”, as God actually said, and caused Him to evict them from the Garden.


Their eviction from the garden is specifically stated as being to prevent their perpetuating their rebellion in an eternal state. They were not evicted because they were ‘like God’ but because they still had access to the tree of life whilst in the garden. Their eviction was a preventative measure.“Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— therefore the LORD God sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken.” (Gen 3:22-23 NKJV)

Quote:
The knowledge of good and evil opened their eyes to their condition of fallen flesh.


You are mistaken. The knowledge of good and evil was just that, the knowledge of good and evil. The folly was that they had now become independent of God’s revelation and ‘being like gods’ were no longer needing God’s support as represented by the tree of life.

Quote:
Here again is the typology thing. Adam was speaking of his body and how Eve came from him. The flesh issue, with its spiritual implications, came because of the knowledge of good and evil. Read what God said: “Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:”


No, it was not ‘because of’ the knowledge of good and evil. The verse you quote here by no means supports your conjecture.

Quote:
With the knowledge of good and evil, man could now live a life separate from his Creator, dependant on himself.


With this statement I agree, but this is still not the cause of his independence nor of ‘flesh’ in the moral sense.

Quote:
Why did God have to send Jesus to crucify flesh in order to reconcile man to Himself? I know this is not fully answering all your questions but it took a whole book of 210 pages to explain “flesh.”


He was crucified ‘in the flesh’ in the physical sense of the word and for those who are in him his crucifixion forever changes their relationship to both the world and the flesh.“And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.” (Gal 5:24 KJVS)

“But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.” (Gal 6:14 KJVS)

Quote:
Everyone seems to want to hammer away at “sin” but as dreadful as sin is, our condition as a creature of mortal flesh is what separates us from God. Why else did Jesus tell Nicodemus he needed to be born anew?


Being a creature of mortal flesh most definitely does NOT separate from God. You have mistaken the thrust of scripture here. Paul declares that he is still a creature of ‘mortal flesh’“I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live [b]in the flesh[/b] I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.” (Gal 2:20 KJVS)… and is still living ‘in it’. The truth you are missing is that it is not living ‘in mortal flesh’ that was the issue. "The word became flesh and dwelt among us." If your thesis is correct Christ was separated from God by his ’mortal flesh’ and we have no Saviour. The issue is not living ‘in the flesh’ but living ‘according to the flesh’. …“Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;” (Rom 1:3 KJVS) It was not his ‘mortal flesh’ that was at issue, nor is ours. It is the mindset of the flesh that is the issue, not its mortality.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2007/4/9 2:46Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3708
Ca.

 Re:

Would everybody say that the Spirit of God and the spirit of Satan are the same?

Would everybody say that the Spirit of Christ and the Spirit of God and the Holy Spirit are the same?

Is Satan a created being? Is man a created being? Is Christ a created being?

Satan was a created being. Man was a created being. Christ is a birthed being.

How do we receive in the new birth, the Spirit of Christ? Is it not by revelation of God and belief on our part. If Adam believed Satan, who's spirit was birthed in him? A created Satan and a created Adam became one in spirit. "You are of your father the devil".

We must be able to divide the spirit and soul in our learning to rightly divide the word of God.
Hbr 4:12 For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Our spirit and our soul are separate yet one with our bone and marrow body. We could not receive the Spirit of Christ by new birth if the spirit of Satan was not defeated at the Cross. Now by believing that Jesus Christ is the Son of God we have been birthed by the Incorruptable Seed of Christ. That is the Spirit of Christ in and the spirit of Satan out.
New creatures in Christ Jesus, "If we don't have the Spirit of Christ we are none of His". Now that is sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, that Christ ask the Father for and we receive the Holy Spirit at the same time. The Flesh has to be quickened to contain this new creation in us. We are now the temple of the Holy Spirit and the life of Christ and God the Father abide in and with us.. The Spirit is Christ, The Soul is taught by the Holy Spirit that will be with us forever and we will learn God forever. The flesh is quickened and the quickened seed must be planted in the ground to bring for new live and fruit in Christ Jesus. Then we will have a flesh and bone like Jesus has or we really don't know what that body will be but we know we will be just like Him when He comes.

Adam had not spirit until he chose the spirit of Satan by believing him. Adam Had a soul which is the life of God breathed in him at creation. By believing the Jesus Christ is the literal only begotten Son of God are we not New Creatures in Christ Jesus. Crucified with Him, resurrected with Him and having a new life in Him.

In Christ a new creation: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2007/4/9 2:56Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Are we born in sin



I myself disagree with Augustine that babies are born deserving of hell (see Romans 9:11), and I disagree with Pelagius that babies are born absolutely fine (see 1Corinthians 15:21-22).

I hold to the middle ground that Finney taught that we are born with physical depravity but not moral depravity. We inherit from our parents a physical body that is dying and is corrupt and this serves as an "aggravated temptation" but not a causation or a forcing to sin.

Sin is not some stuff or some thing that can be inherited. But our physical bodies are inherited, and these physically bias us towards gratification, being an influence but not a causation or else we would have an excuse to sin until death.

We still have a free will and can choose to yield to the influence of our flesh or choose to yield to the influence of the Holy Spirit. That choice is what everyone must make.

Original sin? Sure. Adam was the original sinner who self originated his own sin when he didn't ever have to sin. And every individual has followed him by self originating their own sin when they didn't have to ever sin. Original sin? All sin is self originating.

It's very dangerous when you have a theological excuse to blame your sin on someone else. Everyone must take personal responsible for all of their own sin and guilt. Everyone must take complete responsibility for any disobedience they have in their life. And if your theology gives you any excuse to commit any sin, at any time, you have the wrong theology.

One of the most well balanced and scriptural writings that I know of on this subject is Winkie Pratney. Here are some of his great writings on the subject:

[b]Adam or Me?[/b]
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=10413

[b]The Nature of Sin:[/b]
https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=10412

[b]Man and the Origin of Evil:[/b] https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/articles/index.php?view=article&aid=10409

God bless!

 2007/4/9 4:03









 Re:

Quote:

by Lazarus1719 on 2007/4/9 4:03:36
Sin is not some stuff or some thing that can be inherited. But our physical bodies are inherited, and these physically bias us towards gratification, being an influence but not a causation ... to sin until death.


I like what Lazarus said, being physically a human being is an influence on us to sin but NOT a causation!

We cannot sin until we know we are doing wrong. Paul said, "where there is no law, there is no sin." Simply put, after we come into the knowledge - when we sin we are in rebellion against God.
Quote:

by Lazarus1719 on 2007/4/9 4:03:36
Original sin? All sin is self originating.


We could write books and books and have ultimate theological discussions but until Christ be formed in us, we will sin (rebel against God that we would have our OWN way, not His way). What did Christ teach us to pray? Thy will be done, not mine.

What did Christ do constantly? He being a man, submitted continually to His Father. He showed the way for all men...

Submit to God in all things.

 2007/4/9 7:12
totallyHis
Member



Joined: 2007/1/31
Posts: 16
Southern Manitoba, Canada

 Re:

It seems I have made an error in offering a small portion of my book in answer to someone's question.

It took 12 years in the Word, with the Holy Spirit's teaching, for Him to show me the meaning of Calvary as I requested.

My book, and yes that one chapter, is the result of that revelation of how sin entered the world, how God dealt with it, how He continues to deal with it, and how He will deal with it when Jesus comes back. It is a large "picture" and much too large to "paint" here. I apologize for opening up something that is impossible to complete in few words. I will not attempt to answer any further questions because there simply is not space to do it justice.

The message in the book is so important that satan attempted to take my life on more than one occasion - another story. The book exposes his stronghold in the "church".

My time with the Holy Spirit was precious to me. I have a love for God's Word that I never dreamed possible - all because of Jesus. He gave me a hunger for Him that can only be satified with a greater hunger. What He has taught me is not up for argument - it is precious. It is a message He gave me for the apostate church and He continues to pour in more things to write about. And now I must get back to what He has called me to do.

If anyone has any interest at all in this subject I can only suggest you get the book and read the whole story. It is not possible for two people to debate a book that only one has read. It is available in book stores, Amazon.com, Barnes & Noble, Chapters, etc.

Read the [url=http://www.ekklesia4him.net/comments_on_book.html]comments page[/url] on my site if you want to see what an impact it is having.

An added note: The final two chapters of the book make the one I quoted here make all the sense in the world. God's Word makes it very clear.

God bless you all, and please be nice to each other. :-)


_________________
Stella Paterson

 2007/4/9 10:41Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
It's very dangerous when you have a theological excuse to blame your sin on someone else. Everyone must take personal responsible for all of their own sin and guilt. Everyone must take complete responsibility for any disobedience they have in their life. And if your theology gives you any excuse to commit any sin, at any time, you have the wrong theology.


We have disputed this at length in this forum. My own conviction is that Finney and Jesse are mistaken and that we did receive something in Adam which has permanently affected human nature until it is dealt with in regeneration.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2007/4/9 13:32Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
If anyone has any interest at all in this subject I can only suggest you get the book and read the whole story. It is not possible for two people to debate a book that only one has read. It is available in book stores, Amazon.com, Barnes & Noble, Chapters, etc.


I don't think the purpose of this thread is to debate your book. If the chapter you quoted is typical of your argument I will certainly not be spending time in reading it.

I am always 'nice' to people but I destruction test ideas, especially my own. Establishing sound Christian theology requires that we have hard heads and soft hearts; not the other way around. ;-)


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2007/4/9 13:34Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

2 Cor 5:17 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

If sin is merely a singular transgression of God's moral law, then this verse makes no sense. For here sin is pictured as being a state of being, just as righteousness is viewed as a state of being. Thus, Christ became sin itself (without having ever committed a single act of sin), and as a result of Christ becoming sin, His righteousness was transferred to us. If sin is merely an action, then Christ could not become sin on our behalf. But because He did become sin on our behalf, we could actually be made righteous... the very righteousness of God.

And this is important to get. For unless you get this, you will be mere preachers of morality instead of preachers of Christ.


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Jimmy H

 2007/4/9 17:48Profile





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