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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Are we born into sin?

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Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3708
Ca.

 Re:

Jeff wrote;

Quote: "Why do you suppose they remain in bondage"

Answer: "They won't hear the truth of Christ being born again in them to set them free."

Jeff wrote;

Quote: "Is God not able to teach them the truth"

Why did you ask the first question? I must have been way off in my understanding.

Second question: answer; God is the only one able by the Christ in them and the teaching of the Holy Spirit.

Is this what you are asking?

It sounds to me like the second question answers the first question.

In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2007/4/7 22:08Profile
totallyHis
Member



Joined: 2007/1/31
Posts: 16
Southern Manitoba, Canada

 Re: Are we born into sin?

Hi everyone,

I see you are still kicking this subject around. Let me tell you of an experience I had. After hearing a riveting sermon on the crucifixion, I asked the Lord to show me the meaning of Calvary. I was not prepared for what followed, but it was exciting. Over a period of 12 years I spent most of my days in the Word, being taught by the Holy Spirit. He took me to the account of Garden of Eden to start with, then through the books of the Law and eventually through to the end of Revelation. What He opened up to me, through countless word studies, was incredible. Every question I ever had regarding the Cross was answered.

Following that period of time, I began writing a book from all the reams of notes I had written. The book was finally published in December/06. Since then I have been publishing my word studies on my Bible Study blog. http://ekklesia4him-bible-studies.blogspot.com/
I have encountered a lot of hungry people through the sale of my book, and it is by their request that I am now sharing the things I learned.

I said all that to say this: If you are serious about learning the meaning of the words being debated, you will find the Greek words, their translated English words and all the verses in which they are found. You will be amazed at how many of those words have been misunderstood for decades, which has led to a lot of error. I urge you to check out the studies, read my testimony on my main web site for an interesting account, and read some of my recent articles on just this topic found on this thread.

I trust you may find some answers, but I warn you, it may take a little reading. If you are a lover of God's Word, as I am, you will find them to be a rich resource. All the studies are in PDF for added benefit.

God bless, and if you don't mind, this old lady has to get to bed now.

G'night all.


_________________
Stella Paterson

 2007/4/7 22:53Profile
beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

Quote:
So then by what you have stated,is God at fault?



No.

Blake


_________________
Blake Kidney

 2007/4/8 9:00Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4807


 Re:

Brother Phillip wrote:



Quote:
God is the only one able by the Christ in them and the teaching of the Holy Spirit.



Paul would teach the same thing you wrote here. Yet most never recognize the gift that has been given freely to them. The promise of the Holy Spirit yearns jealously with the spirit of man. Why did Paul always draw this decision in the many epistles that he wrote...

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.


Rom 8:12 ¶ Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

This is Paul's message to all who have received the promise..."Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh."

Paul is always exhorting the believer to imitate the faith of Christ. Christ learned obedience through following the Holy Spirit perfectly. He was made in all ways like His brethren. He took on the weakness that is in the flesh. He condemned the sin of His flesh by the power of the Holy Spirit leading Him. He sacrificed His flesh in every moment of temptation. When Satan brought accusations, cursings, and vile lies against Him, the Father through the Holy Spirit made a way out for Him...

We remain in bondage to sin, if we choose not to follow the Holy Spirit.

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2007/4/8 9:51Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4807


 Re:

Why are you all ignoring what "totallyHis" wrote a few pages back? Is she not worthy of this discussion?

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2007/4/8 9:52Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
totallyHis on 2007/4/5 21:15:05
According to the Hebrew dictionary, “image” means “phantom.” Or one could say, “spirit,” 3 which would mean that man was a spiritual being. Although he was flesh and blood, he was capable of communicating with his Creator. There was no consciousness of man’s humanity because, as the Word says, Adam and Eve were naked (nude) and “were not ashamed.” 4 There was nothing to separate man from his Creator. They could walk and talk in pure communion, Spirit to spirit.

Their flesh was exposed. They were now creatures of flesh, with self-awareness due to the knowledge of good and evil. And the man and woman tried to hide their nakedness with fig leaves. 9 God knew they had eaten the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, and He found them attempting to hide their flesh.

Had man taken and eaten of the Tree of Life in his fallen condition, and lived eternally, God would have lost forever His creation who was made to worship Him. Man’s condition of flesh now separated him from his Creator, but God’s redemptive plan begins to unfold! He would one day reconcile man to Himself as we see in Romans 8:3-4: 'God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and as an offering for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: that the ordinance of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.'


We been encouraged to read your post by rookie. I had not engaged in this particular discussion although the thread topic is one we have discussed often. As you say, your post is a long one, and I don’t know if anyone has commented on yours. I am taking as a assumption that the remainder of this ‘chapter’ is built on this foundation so I will try to address the foundation. I struggle to be sure just what you are suggesting here. You say that man was created from the dust and yet you also say that he is a phantom. I think either your Hebrew dictionary is somewhat limited or you have misread it. We only have to see how the word [url=http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/words.pl?hr=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.blueletterbible.org%2Fsearch.html&icon=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.blueletterbible.org%2Fgifs%2Fsearch_tools.gif&bgcolor=FFFFFF&textcolor=000000&linkcolor=39398C&vlinkcolor=0000FF&strongs=6754&language=H&anything.x=50&anything.y=10]‘tselem’[/url] is used to understand that it certainly does not mean ‘phantom’ in the sense of a disembodied spirit. Rather is it used to express the way in which a ‘spiritual entity’ is expressed as an image. Man/woman is a living soul; the consequence of God having breathed the spirit of lives into a physical body. Mankind is no phantom.

You seem to be saying that man is ‘spirit’ in contrast to him being ‘flesh’. It is the peculiar glory of mankind that he is soul and has both body and spirit; he was designed to be equally at home in the world of the physical and that of the spiritual. The physical was not less; it too was God’s creation.

You say that ‘…Their flesh was exposed. They were now creatures of flesh…’ What does that mean? Did they become creatures of flesh as a result of their disobedience or was their flesh always present but somehow hidden. If it was present what was it that made it visible? You also say that mankind’s self-awareness was due to the knowledge of good and evil. Surely Adam’s comment that “This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh” is a clear indication of his self-awareness and this before the sin of Gen 3.“And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him. And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; And the rib, which the Lord God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.” (Gen 2:20-25 KJVS)
You then say that they attempted to ‘hide their flesh’ with fig leaves. What do you mean by ‘flesh’; their bodies or their mindset? You go on to say that ‘man’s condition of flesh now separated him from his Creator’, but what does this mean? Do you mean his body that he attempted to cover, or his mindset? The scriptures plainly declares that it is ‘sin’ which separates men from God not their attitudes. “But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.” (Is 59:2 KJVS) That is to say, it is not man’s self-consciousness which separates him from God but his sin, and his separation is part of his self-consciousness.

Perhaps, I am concluding hastily but you seem not to be distinguishing between the different ways in which the scriptures use the word ‘flesh’. This seems to be part of rookie’s confusion too. As far as I can understand his position is that Christ had a ‘mind according to the flesh’ which according to the revelation of scriptures “because the mind of the flesh is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can it be:” (Rom 8:7 ASV)
This would mean that Christ ‘was not subject to the law of God’ and ‘could not be subject to the law of God’. Is this your position too?


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2007/4/8 12:46Profile
totallyHis
Member



Joined: 2007/1/31
Posts: 16
Southern Manitoba, Canada

 Re:

Hi Ron,

If it is okay with you I will return a little later to reply. I really need to be somewhere shortly.

Until later...
Stella


_________________
Stella Paterson

 2007/4/8 12:54Profile
totallyHis
Member



Joined: 2007/1/31
Posts: 16
Southern Manitoba, Canada

 Re: Reply to philologos

Philologos said:
We been encouraged to read your post by rookie. I had not engaged in this particular discussion although the thread topic is one we have discussed often. As you say, your post is a long one, and I don’t know if anyone has commented on yours. I am taking as a assumption that the remainder of this ‘chapter’ is built on this foundation so I will try to address the foundation. I struggle to be sure just what you are suggesting here. You say that man was created from the dust and yet you also say that he is a phantom.

totallyHis:
Man was created from the dust but God breathed into him His own breath, which gave man a spirit. As I said in the same chapter, man was then able to commune with God on a spiritual level. When we are born anew, we have the Holy Spirit and also are able to commune with God, spirit to Spirit and He communes with us Spirit to spirit.

philologos:
I think either your Hebrew dictionary is somewhat limited or you have misread it.

totallyHis:
No Sir. The Bible says that man was made in the “image” of God. The Hebrew dictionary shows the meaning of “image” to be this: [tselem (tseh'-lem) From an unused root meaning to shade; a phantom, that is, (figuratively) illusion, resemblance; hence a representative figure, especially an idol: - image, vain shew.] Thus we have the resemblance to God who is a Spirit, as the New Testament tells us in John 4:24. The understanding of the “image of God” passage did not come from isolating the passage, but from seeing the whole picture of our need to be reconciled to God through the death of His Son.

philologos:
We only have to see how the word ‘tselem’ is used to understand that it certainly does not mean ‘phantom’ in the sense of a disembodied spirit.

totallyHis:
That is true and I wasn’t referring to man being a disembodied spirit, but made in the image of God – the word “image” being translated from “tselem”.

philologos:
Rather is it used to express the way in which a ‘spiritual entity’ is expressed as an image. Man/woman is a living soul; the consequence of God having breathed the spirit of lives into a physical body. Mankind is no phantom.

totallyHis:
Where is the argument? We are saying the same thing here.

philologos:
You seem to be saying that man is ‘spirit’ in contrast to him being ‘flesh’. It is the peculiar glory of mankind that he is soul and has both body and spirit; he was designed to be equally at home in the world of the physical and that of the spiritual. The physical was not less; it too was God’s creation.

totallyHis:
The Bible is full of typology, which can be seen in our “drinking Jesus’ blood” for example. The relevance of flesh and man becoming a creature of mortal flesh through the knowledge of good and evil is another one of those types. There is a flesh and blood body and there is a “flesh life” as opposed to a life surrendered to God.

philologos:
You say that ‘…Their flesh was exposed. They were now creatures of flesh…’ What does that mean?

totallyHis:
They saw their sinful condition. They were no longer pure and innocent and living in complete trust in God. Their new-found knowledge of good and evil made them “like God”, as God actually said, and caused Him to evict them from the Garden.

philologos:
Did they become creatures of flesh as a result of their disobedience or was their flesh always present but somehow hidden. If it was present what was it that made it visible?

totallyHis:
The knowledge of good and evil opened their eyes to their condition of fallen flesh.

philologos:
You also say that mankind’s self-awareness was due to the knowledge of good and evil. Surely Adam’s comment that “This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh” is a clear indication of his self-awareness and this before the sin of Gen 3.

totallyHis:
Here again is the typology thing. Adam was speaking of his body and how Eve came from him. The flesh issue, with its spiritual implications, came because of the knowledge of good and evil. Read what God said: “Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:”

philologos:
You then say that they attempted to ‘hide their flesh’ with fig leaves. What do you mean by ‘flesh’; their bodies or their mindset? Typology again, Brother. You go on to say that ‘man’s condition of flesh now separated him from his Creator’, but what does this mean?

totallyHis:
With the knowledge of good and evil, man could now live a life separate from his Creator, dependant on himself.

philologos:
Do you mean his body that he attempted to cover, or his mindset? The scriptures plainly declares that it is ‘sin’ which separates men from God not their attitudes. “But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.” (Is 59:2 KJVS)

totallyHis:
Who was God speaking to in that verse?

philologos:
That is to say, it is not man’s self-consciousness which separates him from God but his sin, and his separation is part of his self-consciousness.

totallyHis:
Why did God have to send Jesus to crucify flesh in order to reconcile man to Himself? I know this is not fully answering all your questions but it took a whole book of 210 pages to explain “flesh.” It is not possible here to satisfy every question in few words. If you want the book to read the whole account you can get it at your UK Amazon online bookstore. [url=http://www.amazon.co.uk/]Calling Forth The Remnant[/url] is the name of the book.

philologos:
Perhaps, I am concluding hastily but you seem not to be distinguishing between the different ways in which the scriptures use the word ‘flesh’.

totallyHis:
It is typology, of which I am sure you are familiar.

philologos:
This seems to be part of rookie’s confusion too. As far as I can understand his position is that Christ had a ‘mind according to the flesh’ which according to the revelation of scriptures
“because the mind of the flesh is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can it be:” (Rom 8:7 ASV)

totallyHis:
I don’t think rookie was saying that Christ had a mind according to the flesh. In that passage, Paul was telling us that the mind of the flesh is death but the mind of the Spirit is life. Jesus came in the “likeness” of sinful flesh – not AS “sinful flesh”. Look at this passage from the pre-1870 KJV Bible: “For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and as an offering for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: that the ordinance of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” Romans 8:3-4

philologos:
This would mean that Christ ‘was not subject to the law of God’ and ‘could not be subject to the law of God’. Is this your position too?

totallyHis:
Absolutely not. Christ came to destroy flesh so we could follow Him by way of the Cross, allowing our flesh to be crucified with Him and walk in newness of Life by His Spirit. Check this next passage: “For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the things of the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For the mind of the flesh is death; but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace. The mind of the flesh is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can it be. And they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you. But if any man hath not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.” Romans 8:5-9

Adam fell from that place in God but through the Spirit we can once again be in Him. We need no longer be in bondage to flesh and self, and all that flesh produces – whether sin or self-righteousness.

Everyone seems to want to hammer away at “sin” but as dreadful as sin is, our condition as a creature of mortal flesh is what separates us from God. Why else did Jesus tell Nicodemus he needed to be born anew?

Without my whole book it is difficult to be any more explicit. Sorry! Hope this has helped somewhat.


_________________
Stella Paterson

 2007/4/8 15:59Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

That long line of the URL for your book has distorted the page. If you edit your post and remove it we shall be able to read your post more intelligibly.

If you want to leave it in you can use the URL button that you will find where you entered your original text. Click it and then enter the URL then click it again and enter the books title. This is much tidier and doesn't mess up the screen.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2007/4/8 16:25Profile









 Re:

Quote:
Rookie 2007/4/8 9:52
Why are you all ignoring what "totallyHis" wrote a few pages back? Is she not worthy of this discussion?


In my humble opinion, I have noticed that some [edited from most] of the women's replies are indeed looked over and (Rookie's words)... doesn't seem worthy of a response. But that is just my humble two cents.

totallyHis, you seem like you are indeed well studied in the Word of God and well versed in the things of the Lord, so this should keep them on their toes if they read your responses.

I very well might be wrong about this but I think some dare not even read a woman's reply lest they might actually learn something from a woman!!! But let me encourage you to keep up the good work in the spirit for His Glory!

PS: I don't mean to be negative, so let me add that the 13,000 sermons on this site has totally blessed me and fed me through a long drought!! (Thank you Greg!!!)

God bless,
Lisa

 2007/4/8 17:38





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