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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Are we born into sin?

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beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

Quote:
what happens to newborns and babies when they die?



There are so many questions along these lines. We might also ask about gentiles who lived before Christ, what of those? What about people who have never heard?

Jesus Christ is the judge over all. I trust that He will judge rightly. The only person's salvation that I am assured is my own.

In Christ,
Blake


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Blake Kidney

 2007/4/6 23:43Profile
beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

Quote:
The other theory is that we are born into a sin weakness and then choose to rebel against God.

Here is a link to one of the articles by Otis Jr.:



I am sorry, but I disagree with this article. This man wants to keep people in bondage to the law. He completely missing the entire point of salvation and the work of God.

A great many people misunderstand sin, and this is a large problem facing Christianity today. I do not have the time tonight to explain sin tonight, however, I think a post on sin is appropriate. So, when I have more time to write, I will do so.

You must keep in mind that Jesus said in John 3:7 "You must be born again." Why would we need to undergo such a dramatic change if we are merely weak? To be born again means that we die and are born again. It means we become a totally new creation. If we are just weak and unruly, then all we would need is a little encouragement and some discipline. But why do we need to experience a complete transformation? Why do we need to be recreated?

Some things to think about.

In Christ,
Blake


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Blake Kidney

 2007/4/6 23:57Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

We did'nt inherit his spiritual death.



Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Sin (the nature) produced sins (the individual acts that God's law condemns). The spiritual death in man produced a physical death. Sin (the nature) existed before individual sins were charged through the law. For until the Law, sin (the nature) was still active in man.

Romans 5:18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. 19 For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

Quote:

How is it that denying the doctrine of original sin is also denying the effective work of Christ?



Paul argues that Adam's "act" brought about the fall of all who are in Adam. He then argues that Christ's "act" brought about the justification of all who are in Christ. To Paul, you are either in Adam or Christ. And he sees all who are born into this world as being in Adam. Thus, there is the need for all who are born into this world to be born again.

Therefore, when we read this passage, if we deny the doctrine of original sin which Paul argues we receive from Adam's act, then we must deny the doctrine of justification that we receive from Christ's act. For Paul argues we receive sin and death from Adam act, but grace and life from Christ act. If this were not the case, then there is no need to bring up Adam at all.


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Jimmy H

 2007/4/6 23:58Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
KingJimmy wrote:
Sin (the nature) produced sins (the individual acts that God's law condemns). The spiritual death in man produced a physical death. Sin (the nature) existed before individual sins were charged through the law. For until the Law, sin (the nature) was still active in man.


Pure conjecture.

Sin is not a nature, sin is an act or error.
Knoweing to do good, and not doing it is sin.
Sin is the transgression of the law.
All unrighteousness is sin:

The word sin as an abstract expression of wrong or evil.

[b]Romans 5:12[/b] [color=990000]Therefore, as through one man sin entered into the world, so also death passed to all men, upon all who sinned[/color]
It is the death that passed to man, not the "sin nature"

[b]Romans 5:18[/b] [color=990000]So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation[/color][of death to all men] [color=990000] to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification [b]of life to all men[/b].[/color]
[b]Romans 5:19[/b] [color=990000]For as through the one man's disobedience, the many were made sinners[/color],[in like manner of disobedience] [color=990000]so also through the obedience of the One the many shall be made righteous.[/color]],[in like manner of obedience]

Quote:
KingJimmy wrote:
Paul argues that Adam's "act" brought about the fall of all who are in Adam.


Paul actualy argues that Adam's "act" brought about the death(Rom 5:12) of all who are in Adam, because all who are in Adam die(1Co 15:22).

Quote:
KingJimmy wrote:
For Paul argues we receive sin and death from Adam act, but grace and life from Christ act. If this were not the case, then there is no need to bring up Adam at all.


Paul argues we receive death from Adam act, no where does it say that we receive sin.

The reson to bring adam is that just as Adam disobeyed and became a sinner, so it is that as we disobey, we becom sinners.
So it is with Christ and His obediance of His cross, so it is that as we obey by taking up our cross.
Furthermore in 1Corinth shows the difrence of Adam and Christ, but in that chapter mentions nothing about sinfulness eccept the sting of death being sin.

 2007/4/7 1:31Profile
MattChenier
Member



Joined: 2006/11/13
Posts: 121
Longview,WA

 Re:

I posted a reply but erased it because this is just one of those topics where there is so much scripture that seems to support either side. Good Luck!


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Matt Chenier

 2007/4/7 3:01Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3708
Ca.

 Re:

Jeff wrote:

Quote; "So it is with Christ and His obediance of His cross, so it is that as we obey by taking up our cross".

Which is truly His Cross, if we had a cross it would make no difference what we did with it. Taking up our Cross and following Him. Since He could not carry His own Cross, neither can we, He, Jesus Christ must carry it for us, then we can follow Him.

Mat 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

Mat 16:24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Mat 27:32 And as they came out, they found a man of Cyrene, Simon by name: him they compelled to bear his cross.

Our model, He must carry our Cross.

It is no longer I who live, but the incarnate Christ who lives in me. "Christ liveth in me"

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2007/4/7 5:12Profile
rowdy2
Member



Joined: 2007/1/21
Posts: 528
Southern USA

 Re: Good and evil

Children are born into a world of sin, their mothers and fathers sin but they are with out sin. They rely on love.

Quote totallyHis wrote

Another word for flesh is “self,” and when
man’s eyes were opened he discovered his
self-awareness, with its accompanying
self-sufficiency. Rather than rely on God, man
now relied on his knowledge of good and evil.

Well said Stella, the doctrine of our Lord, Christ Jesus, Love, Love, Love, Love.

New Heart + Love = Born Again

Eddie


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Eddie

 2007/4/7 7:31Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

Sin is not a nature, sin is an act or error.



Romans 6:6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7 for he who has died is freed from sin.

Romans 6:12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts

Romans 6:16 ... you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

Here sin is not just represented as mere acts of disobedience, it is represented as a nature. And we as believers can either present ourselves as slaves to our flesh's sinful nature, or we can present ourselves as slaves to God, as one's alive from the dead. Our old carnal "body of sin" has been crucified with Him, so that we could be freed from the chains of our old sin nature. Thus, we as believers are no longer bound to sin as a sinner is. For sinners do what they are: they sin.

And Paul tells us plainly: don't obey sin. If sin is not a nature, it cannot be obeyed.

Ephesians 2:3 Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest...


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Jimmy H

 2007/4/7 8:59Profile
KingJimmy
Member



Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

Quote:

KingJimmy wrote:
Sin (the nature) produced sins (the individual acts that God's law condemns). The spiritual death in man produced a physical death. Sin (the nature) existed before individual sins were charged through the law. For until the Law, sin (the nature) was still active in man.


Pure conjecture.



And this is not pure conjecture. Paul says quite clearly, sin reigned in mankind even before the law came and enumerated a list of sins. But, nevertheless man's sinful nature reigned. Between Adam and Moses, sin still existed. And we know this because death still reigned.


_________________
Jimmy H

 2007/4/7 9:17Profile









 SIN - A RACE OF REBELS

This is the link the third chapter from the book

THE GOD THEY NEVER KNEW

THE TRAGEDY OF RELIGION WITHOUT RELATIONSHIP

By George Otis Jr

SIN

A RACE OF REBELS


http://firesofrevival.com/otis/otis3.htm

 2007/4/7 9:49





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