| Re: a REAL church rebuke|
Here we are throwing mud at eachother argueing over who has the true Gospel -if we were visited by Paul Washer's peruvian congregation they may say that neither of us has the Gospel.
I know this is often the case, that people will "complain" about this or that in hte church and do nothing but you are WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY of the mark on your application of this to what is happening in Detroit.
I will write only about brother Josef, both as to not puff myself up, and because he was primarilty involved in the initial "incident" at kensington. Brother Josef is a MIGHTY prayer warrior who prays for hours at a time, fasts for days at a time and preaches in the most dangerous parts of inner city Detroit where even the police won't go... literally.
He does all this because of a burning passion for the Glory of God and a love for the poor souls who are in bondage and need to be liberated from the powerless Gospel they have heard about all of their lives. In fact, he is currently on his honeymoon, probably in Mexico, preaching the good news to violent, highly dangerous drug cartel and gang members.
I write this to rebuke the subtle, false accusations you have made in your previous post and because Josef is a dear brother whom I love greatly. When the next Josef walks into your congregation with a prophetic word from God, please dont be so quick to dismiss him with the preconcieved notions that you have.
I understand being skeptical, but dont dismiss everything so quickly.
in Christ - Jim
| 2007/3/26 14:58|
Thank you for your word. Thankfully there are still men in America like Josef, but from my experience those men end up being frustrated and either tone down to end up in the mission field... but it sounds like he's making Detroit his mission field, which is awesome! A lot of Americans say 'well America is my mission field,' yet they wouldn't even look at a gang member, let alone reach out to him with the Gospel.
That is why I believe (as I have already stated) that there is a remmant which is keeping judgement from falling on this nation. In the OT there were 7000 who hadn't prostrated before Baal, there may be more in America today, but the wrath eventually fell on Israel and it may not be far off from America.
| 2007/3/26 15:15||Profile|
Ian... spiritual immaturity is one thing, but we're talking about a church that is [b]teaching[/b] a false Christ, and there is no excuse for this. And scripture makes it very clear how it is to be handled, and it is not up to us go against scripture because of how we [i]feel[/i] it should be handled. Thats called disobedience.
We are not given the right to disobey scripture because what we're saying then is that we know better than God how something should be handled.
If you believe scripture is wrong, then more power to ya, bro. I'd prefer to stick to scripture.
| 2007/3/26 15:17|
I am with you on much of what you wrote, I just wanted to point out that what is going on in Detroit is not the [rhetorical] doctrinal mud slinging that we see so often.
its true what you said about getting fed up and going to the mission field... I can relate to that in many ways.
In Christ - Jim
| 2007/3/26 15:19|
Paul when he wrote letters to churches that were in horrible sin, churches that he founded, didn't condemn them for worshipping a false Christ. He rebuked them for their spiritual immaturity and lack of growth. He baptised some of them himself, yet there was infighting, different teachings and doctrine and he had to write to correct it. I would say that if he warned about a false Jesus being preached it was 5% of his message when 95% was against spiritual immaturity.
It would be wrong to apply Paul's teachings towards churches with the 5% and ignore the 95%.
| 2007/3/26 15:23||Profile|
I cannot believe that this is very diffulcult to understand. If Jesus is first in our lives, if He is our first love how could anybody sit quietly and watch the church mock God?
A person who is filled with God and has the spirit of prayer cannot sit there quietly while those who profess to be christians laugh at God. The fire of God would burn him from the inside out and cause him to open his mouth and speak the truth, will cause his soul to be in agony, much grief seeing the church in this way, not giving God the glory that is due Him! Will melt his heart and fill his eyes with tears seeing His God being defamed in His house.
Thats the problem with church. We tolerate sin! And because the many christians tolerate sin and fear persecution, the lukewarmers and wolves take over the church. We give the lukewarmers and wolves what they want. Then we wonder why the churches are filled with harlotry.
This is not about petty arguing about cal/arm, gifts,gossip,. If we cannot see the EVIL of mocking and laughing at Jesus, I ask again, where is your heart? You would not even see this kind of mocking and laughing at God among many unbelievers! If we cannot see the outrageosness of this sin and be broken over His name being defiled among the church then Jesus is surely not first in your lives. Surely we do not fear God, but men!
Yes, we are responsible for this generation and if we just sit their and watch the church mock Jesus, the next generation will be worse at handling the word of God. The next generatin will embrace all kinds of ill humor agaist God because this generation puts up with it!
For this generation already puts up with so much falsehood, imagine the next.
Because there are so much falsehood in the church is because there are so many cowardly men who love their life and fear loosing face.
I do pray God would raise up more men like Joseph. We need more men who do not fear men, but God alone, who are wrought with holy violence and filled with deep love for God and souls that he is willing to be misunderstood that others may live and know the truth!
| 2007/3/26 16:32||Profile|
I was shocked and frustrated by those videos as well. I couldn't believe that any church would have created such a thing. I'm not letting them off easy -but I'm also not going to immediately jump to the conclusion that they don't have a real relationship with Jesus either.
Sometimes I do and say horrible things to the people that I love -even things which take weeks, months, years to make right.
Just because a person makes a video that is irreverent doesn't mean they are not Children of God. If they are not that is one thing, but if they are the diagnosis is immaturity, not 'preaching a different Jesus.'
This Sunday my small group leader gave the message at my church and preached a whole hour without saying the name Jesus... the only reference to Christ was in the scripture he started with and i his closing prayers... he preached on renewing our minds and at a glance it almost felt like a psychology class.
Now if I didn't know the man and heard this message for the first time I would assume (wrongly) that Jesus isn't preached in this church -and I would be wrong. It didn't make me any less frustrated, I wanted to drop kick him after the service... but he's my Spiritual leader, and I should be careful which fights I pick. Does the fact that he preached a Christless sermon make him a pagan or the teacher of a different Jesus... no, he just didn't have the right focus Yesterday.
If I was his Spiritual leader and recognized the shallowness of his sermon I would have a word with him, but I'm his sheep, so it's quite a different situation.
My whole point is, don't judge so much on appearances, and don't judge a church by one sermon or one video. I'm not forgiving their sin by any means -but we serve a savior that will if they seek his face!
| 2007/3/26 16:50||Profile|
Next time you should bring handcuffs so that you can be chained to the seat. It'll take them a lot longer to remove you then :)
| 2007/3/26 17:28||Profile|
| Re: church rebuked|
would first like to say that I am new to this board and discussion, and I am very privileged and please to be around such a community of believers. My response to this discussion;
I do not like many discussions of this sort because they can breed discord and maybe not understood or realized up front, but they tend to be spoken out of much of our particular selfish desires that are so rooted within us.
I do not claim to be an expert on anything, but I have read most of the posts concerning this subject, and I find that everyone off you all posted very significant responses. I would like to add that all of you are right with many of your assessments, but most importantly, what is of utmost importance is what the spirit of almighty God has declared or spoken in ur spirit. Whether one feels it lines up perfectly with your theological indoctrination, theological propaganda, and your particular theological presupposition.
I put this in such a way because there are NO scholars in this world that can firmly tell either one of us of the exact particulars that are in scripture because they or ourselves were not there! What I am saying rely upon our gracious Lord Jesus to open and reveal to us the scriptures as pertaining to exactly what a portion of written theology is attempting to convey to our hearts. I perceive that all we "christians" are guilty of trying to make the sacred scriptures do what we want them to do based upon our concerns or issues at the time.
I also firmly believe that the Christ is the final authority on all issues of theology. In short, forums tend to create opinions and personal thoughts that turn in to "pissing" matches that never end, or it leaves an uncertain thought in someone else's mind, and it also causes us to think one of us are more wise or of more understanding than the other. Foolish Pride on all of our parts...
Lets be at peace with one another no matter who was wrong.... When it all boils down to it, Jesus commands us to Love whether it be in tenderness or in harsher temperament, it must all be in love. Do not open your mouth before a group, congregation, or even one until you have been propelled by the HOLY SPIRIT who promised to guide us in the truth and to comfort us.
The Holy Spirit has the best answer for the moment, and even as some of you all stated about Jeremiah, and the other prophets, they responded on basis of God's Love. Whether the situation was was awful in there eyes or next to hopeless , they spoke as the scripture states as the Holy Men were moved by GOD.
Briefly on the basis of another gospel, mega churches, small churches, or whatever issue, the spirit will testify in your spirit as to how to deal with these issues.
I say this because we all have an opinion, especially a scriptural "insight" I Cor 14:26, and I firmly believe that all that we believers do should be unto edification, even if it seems as though we are tearing down. God must lead and guide us by his mind which is his spirit on how to see and carry out judgement concerning those issues..
ha shem Yeshua has Messchiach
| 2007/3/26 17:46||Profile|
one of biggest reasons for explaining myself was beccause we tend to think because something happen particularly in scripture then we are to look at it and respond in like manner or in the same way or ways. We are to be led of the spirit in order to deal with the people, and the different spirits of this world.
We must all remember that when we go alone, we are just that out there on our own with our views, opinions, and attitudes. That part of us must also DIE with our other rebellion and sinfulness.
I believe that if we were to get into the heads or the hearts per say of the the Church giants, Mr. Ravenhill, or one of my favorites David Martin Lloyd-Jones we will realized that these men lost their own views and lives because their own lives, interpretations, and presuppositions are selfish, and it works a sort of witchcraft. Of the which guys and gals we all are guilty...
Ha shem Yeshua ha Meschiach
| 2007/3/26 17:59||Profile|