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crsschk
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Nonresitance

Some very good stuff. Reading through all these wondered how this verse might apply;

[i]But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another[/i]
Matt 10:23 (KJV)


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Mike Balog

 2007/3/26 0:03Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4803


 Re: Nonresitance

Quote:
We should never place our loyalty to our country and culture above our loyalty to God.



James 5:

10 My brethren, take the prophets, who spoke in the name of the Lord, as an example of suffering and patience. 11 Indeed we count them blessed who endure. You have heard of the perseverance of Job and seen the end intended by the Lord—that the Lord is very compassionate and merciful.

James 5:12 But above all, my brethren, do not swear, either by heaven or by earth or with any other oath. But let your “Yes” be “Yes,” and your “No,” “No,” lest you fall into judgment.


When one enters into an oath, he is at the mercy of the one he swears alegiance to. There is only One who's name must be hallowed. The Lord will preserve those who hallow His name.

2Cor. 6:14 Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? 15 And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever? 16 And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said:
“I will dwell in them
And walk among them.
I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.”
17 Therefore
“Come out from among them
And be separate, says the Lord.
Do not touch what is unclean,
And I will receive you.”
18 “I will be a Father to you,
And you shall be My sons and daughters,
Says the LORD Almighty.”


In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2007/3/26 0:43Profile
roadsign
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Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re: more thoughts on non-resistance

Ginnyrose said:

Quote:
This idea was a new one until...


Certainly, it is extremely difficult to see where we are influenced by cultural values – especially when we are in the middle of it. Our values seem right to us, and so we can’t imagine that the Bible could ever contradict them! Most of our values are unconscious. That’s why the value of the earlier suggestion:

Quote:
talk to Christians from different cultures and get their perspective....



Canada, of course, has adopted many of the US’s cultural values. Yet there are a few differences (to some extent) – especially regarding the exertion of power in order to put others where we want them to be. And that doesn’t only refer to political/military maneuvering. A Canadian lady recently visited the US and found herself in a traffic situation where she held up some drivers behind her. She did not expect that sudden honking of horns coming from all around her. It shocked and unnerved her, and she couldn’t focus on her driving. Of course, that would not be troubling to those accustomed to it; but it does expose an assertive characteristic of American culture - that is perhaps more easily seen from the outside.

While resistance/domination is regarded as a cultural virtue that pertains to war, it cannot help but filter down into all walks of life – besides international/political affairs. Consider its effect even in conservative evangelical religion – where one feels quite justified in using power (with words, etc) to subdue those in the wrong, or assert oneself over sinners. Ex:

"I want those in the wrong to know that I won’t stand for it!"
"I’m not going to “let”….."
"I just won't "allow" ..."
"They need to know..."

That is exactly how I heard US political leaders speak about Iran (along with some power-posturing and threats) - but does that method have a place in the lives of Christ’s followers - ever? Is policing our calling – regarding the way we deal with others? How can we view that as our calling when it is contrary to the very character and teaching of Christ. Are we not to exemplify his character?

Jesus said, “Turn the other cheek” To me, that is the ultimate in non-resistance! What did he mean? (It certainly is NOT politically correct)

What about the way we communicate with each other – whether in our families, churches, communities, or here? Just how much freedom has God given us to resist another with what would seem like verbal swords (often referred to as “rebuke”)?


Diane


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Diane

 2007/3/26 12:40Profile
pastorfrin
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Joined: 2006/1/19
Posts: 1406


 Re:Cultural values

Sister Diane,
You wrote:

Quote:
Certainly, it is extremely difficult to see where we are influenced by cultural values – especially when we are in the middle of it. Our values seem right to us, and so we can’t imagine that the Bible could ever contradict them! Most of our values are unconscious. That’s why the value of the earlier suggestion:



Sister, do you think it may be a lack of knowing
what the Word of God actually says about non-resistance. Then if you combine lack of knowledge, along with what is being said from the pulpit, mans word supersedes God's Word.

Shortly after I was discharded from the service
my wife and I began to attend the Wesleyan church, where we were married. We had recently
recommitted our lives to the Lord and I could not get enough of God's word. I studied for hours at a time, month after month, and one thing that jumped off the pages was Our Lord's
teaching on non-resistance. So of course I took what I had discovered to our SS class which the
pastor was teaching. I will never forget the response of those people and the pastor.
It was as if I slapped them in the face. They attacked like wild dogs. I quoted scripture to no avail, they literally wanted to stone me.
This went on for several weeks and one Sunday morning the pastor said to the class, I want us all to read together Matthew 5, after we had finished reading he broke down in tears and said I have been wrong and I have asked the Lord's forgiveness and now I am asking for all of yours.
He went on to say, our brother is right in what he says the Lord has taught him, we as christians
must obey our Lord and practice non-resistance.
Needless to say I almost fell on the floor, but instead we all (well some of us) hugged one another and the whole atmosphere in the class changed, all because people saw what Jesus really said.
Praise the Lord if we would only look at His Word and it be our guide. Culture can literally
send us to Hell if it replaces the Word of God.

In His Love

pastorfrin

 2007/3/26 19:46Profile
lovejt
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Joined: 2005/11/5
Posts: 123


 Re:

That is a wonderful testimony.
Thanks for sharing that brother.


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james thorpe

 2007/3/26 22:17Profile
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Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re: truth vs conscience

Quote:
Sister, do you think it may be a lack of knowing
what the Word of God actually says about non-resistance. Then if you combine lack of knowledge, along with what is being said from the pulpit, mans word supersedes God's Word.


I do believe that whatever has been imprinted on our minds and consciences takes precedence over any new information – even if we see it blatantly in the Bible. Is that not why that pastor you spoke about resisted you so vehemently? He really thought he was defending truth. (This is a good reason to teach and model kingdom values early in life and continuously afterwards: to create the correct imprints, and to provide resiliency against the incorrect ones.)

Ginnyrose said,
Quote:
…. we are strangers and pilgrims and they have no rights in an alien land (at least in most countries) so how does this look like where the rubber meets the road? So if I do not vote, I will not be called to jury duty...

Yes, I am thinking and wondering how the LORD is going to lead us...the longer it goes I get the feeling my presense at the polling place is history...


Mmmm, I’ve never thought through this like you have. One thing I can say is that our preoccupation with the affairs of this world can rob us of our much-needed time and focus on the kingdom of God – and so we become spiritually impoverished. Add to that the fact that the information we receive in the media has been spun in such a way as to manipulate our minds and gain our allegiance. (Not that refusing to vote has any virtue in itself. Maybe it has its place – just not as big as it’s made out to be).

I believe that it is our real enemy, the devil who tries to get us overly obsessed with our opponents, enemies, and all the bad stuff in the world so that we will keep our eyes off of God, and remain in a state of weak faith.

I use the analogy of junk food: We can be so focused on the problems of junk food, campaigning against it, resisting, etc that we fail to learn about good food. In fact, the day could suddenly come when we wake up and realize that we have never served a proper nutritious meal in our entire lifetime – either to ourselves, or to anyone else. In other words, setting a life-time occupation of resisting the effects of the kingdom of the world merely leaves a vacuum at best. We’d do far better by focusing on our relationsnhip and participation with God – of ushering in his kingdom. Isn’t that our calling?

“But seek first the kingdom of God…. “
"Thy kingdom come..."

Quote:
But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another
Matt 10:23 (KJV)


What feels like defeat in our culture, is not necessarily defeat in God's kingdom.

Diane



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Diane

 2007/3/27 6:55Profile
ginnyrose
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Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7494
Mississippi

 Re:

Interesting thread...just a couple scattered comments...

Diane wrote:
Jesus said, “Turn the other cheek” To me, that is the ultimate in non-resistance! What did he mean? (It certainly is NOT politically correct)

This statement explains well why pacifism is not Biblical but Biblical nonresistance is. Pacifism works to incorporate this principle in how a government is to be run/operated and it does not work. The civil authorites mission is totally different and that is to restrain the work of evil men. In accomplishing this, physical force needs to be used. The purpose of the church is to evangelize. So now we have in this world the civil authorities and the church, both legitimate ministries (Romans 13:4) ordained by God. The way each functions is totally different, using different methods.

Diane wrote:
Add to that the fact that the information we receive in the media has been spun in such a way as to manipulate our minds and gain our allegiance.

Yeah, if you vote for me or give money to this cause we will fight this moral issue, fix it and everyone will live happily ever after! :-P Unfortunately, the problems still persists and are getting worse.

Blesings,
ginnyrose


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Sandra Miller

 2007/3/27 9:03Profile
Compton
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Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Quote:
I will never forget the response of those people and the pastor.It was as if I slapped them in the face. They attacked like wild dogs. I quoted scripture to no avail, they literally wanted to stone me.This went on for several weeks and one Sunday morning the pastor said to the class, I want us all to read together Matthew 5, after we had finished reading he broke down in tears and said I have been wrong and I have asked the Lord's forgiveness and now I am asking for all of yours.



This is a real blessing of a testimony.

Quote:
One thing I can say is that our preoccupation with the affairs of this world can rob us of our much-needed time and focus on the kingdom of God – and so we become spiritually impoverished. Add to that the fact that the information we receive in the media has been spun in such a way as to manipulate our minds and gain our allegiance.



These days everything we know seems to come from the media. Yet I have arrived at a deep conviction that a person who protects their ears and eyes from the media is wiser then someone who allows their minds to become unsound from too much exposure to the political and idealogical radiation of this world. I have found it very difficult to be attuned towards the Kingdom of God if we spend much time meditating on the thoughts of men like Ted Koppel. Thier precepts are not Christs.

MC


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Mike Compton

 2007/3/27 9:26Profile
ginnyrose
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Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7494
Mississippi

 Re:

MC wrote:
These days everything we know seems to come from the media. Yet I have arrived at a deep conviction that a person who protects their ears and eyes from the media is wiser then someone who allows their minds to become unsound from too much exposure to the political and idealogical radiation of this world. I have found it very difficult to be attuned towards the Kingdom of God if we spend much time meditating on the thoughts of men like Ted Koppel. Thier precepts are not Christs.

I, too, am finding it the same...and this comes from someone who used to know everything that was going on in the political world. The weaning process started with Watergate! God accomplished one thing is allowing that to happen.

ginnyrose


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Sandra Miller

 2007/3/27 9:45Profile
pastorfrin
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Joined: 2006/1/19
Posts: 1406


 Re:

Hi All,
I was just reading Micah and this jumped out at me, seems to fit in with our dicussion.

Micah 7:1-7
Woe is me! for I am as when they have gathered the summer fruits, as the grapegleanings of the vintage: there is no cluster to eat: my soul desired the firstripe fruit. [2] The good man is perished out of the earth: and there is none upright among men: they all lie in wait for blood; they hunt every man his brother with a net.
[3] That they may do evil with both hands earnestly, the prince asketh, and the judge asketh for a reward; and the great man, he uttereth his mischievous desire: so they wrap it up. [4] The best of them is as a brier: the most upright is sharper than a thorn hedge: the day of thy watchmen and thy visitation cometh; now shall be their perplexity.
[5] Trust ye not in a friend, put ye not confidence in a guide: keep the doors of thy mouth from her that lieth in thy bosom. [6] For the son dishonoureth the father, the daughter riseth up against her mother, the daughter in law against her mother in law; a man's enemies are the men of his own house. [7] Therefore I will look unto the Lord; I will wait for the God of my salvation: my God will hear me.


He gives us the solution in vs. 7
" Therefore I will look unto the Lord; I will wait for the God of my salvation: my God will hear me.

Not man nor politics, not riches or vain glory,
not government, country or war, but who do I vote
for, The God Of My SALVATION; HE WILL HEAR me.
Praise the Name of Jesus, He is our Deliverer.
Yes, I will look unto my LORD.

In His Love

pastorfrin

 2007/3/27 19:02Profile





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