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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Free Will (In Greek)

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JaySaved
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Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1132
Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
I know of no one, reformed, non-reformed, dead or alive who holds my view.


Does this bother you? It would bother me if I held a belief that no one throughout the course of history held to.

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Well, 'voluntary' is an adjective and 'the will' is a noun. Voluntary describes a noun, but 'the will' is a noun. You have to define a noun before you can add an adjective to it. There is no biblical definition of 'the will'; it is a human, psychological and theological construct.


If voluntary is the adjective, then what is the noun it describes? The choice? The choice is the result of man's decision (i.e., the Will)

Quote:
Where do you see this 'faculty' as being located?


Ron, I know you are being a bit silly here.

 2007/3/26 14:57Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
If voluntary is the adjective, then what is the noun it describes? The choice? The choice is the result of man's decision (i.e., the Will)


You are creating a circular argument. The bible doesn't have a concept of 'mans will' other than as a decree. The concept of 'the will' is missing from the Bible.

Where do you see this 'faculty' as being located? I repeat my question because I am not being silly. Is this thing in my mind, my body, my spirit, my heart, my conscience? Where is it supposed to be located.

Quote:
Does this bother you? It would bother me if I held a belief that no one throughout the course of history held to.


No, but than I didn't say that no one had held the view, only that I knew no one who had held the view. I am, I trust, open to reasonable discussion and to the word of God.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2007/3/26 15:09Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1132
Missouri

 Re:

Ron, it is not a circular argument. If voluntary is the adjective then it must be describing the choice made by man. It must be describing the freedom of choice that God has granted to all men.

From Man's Will- Free Yet Bound by Walter J. Chantry
"Every man has the ability to choose his own words, to decide what his actions will be. We have a faculty of self-determination in the sense that we select our own thoughts, words, and deeds. Man is free to choose what he prefers, what he desires."

I know you do not deny that we have this freedom, but you deny the 'faculty' man utilizes to make decisions between desires.

Ron, please hear my heart, know that I respect you deeply and am thankful that we are to have this civilized discussion. Having said that, I can easily make the biblical case for the Will just as easily as I can make it for the Trinity. In my humble opinion, it is just that you choose not to see the Will described in scripture, just as some of our non-trinitation friends object to the Trinity 'because it is not found in scripture.'

 2007/3/26 15:30Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
Ron, please hear my heart, know that I respect you deeply and am thankful that we are to have this civilized discussion. Having said that, I can easily make the biblical case for the Will just as easily as I can make it for the Trinity. In my humble opinion, it is just that you choose not to see the Will described in scripture, just as some of our non-trinitation friends object to the Trinity 'because it is not found in scripture.'


In other words 'don't confuse me with evidence, I have made my mind up'. OK, end of discussion.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2007/3/26 16:49Profile









 Re:

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Arminian friends (who are strangely silent right now)



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(By the way, I still don't understand why I am the one who is defending free will. Where are all of the Arminians?!)



Unfortinately, many Arminians are silent today. Calvinism is having a very large impact in this day through men like MacArthur, Piper, and others. Almost all seminaries are Augustinian/Calvinism (The former is the father of the latter).

If things continue to continue down the road they are going, I can forsee the crippling of evangelism urgency along with the almost complete destruction of Christian holiness within the Church. With all seriousness, I can predict an age of antinomianism, which is already upon us, deceiving the elect.

The scriptural doctrines held by the Early Church Fathers and also by Fox, Wesley, Finney, Booth, Tozer, Reidhead, Ravenhill and countless others need to be revived. The biblical doctrines of free-will, responsibility, probation, and holiness need to be revived! We need to get back to sound, orthodox doctrines.

 2007/3/26 17:09
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

I've always regarded myself as being on the Arminian side of the water. But there are Arminians and there are Arminians. Your little list is interesting but they are nicely mixed.

Wesley, Booth and Ravenhill all holding to the concept of 'original sin' with Wesley declaring that those who didn't hold it were still half heathen. :-o

Fox, Finney and Reidhead would all be on the other side of that particular argument.

I'm not so sure that the Calvinists have it all there own way over here. The charismatic movement has tended to blur the distinctions although there are certainly outspoken Calvinists around too.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2007/3/26 18:11Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1132
Missouri

 Re:

Jesse, I am glad you joined us again. I have been looking for someone who believes in free will but does not hold to the Reformed viewpoint to way in.

My question to those who are not Calvinist, what do you think when Ron says that there is not such thing as a Will?

 2007/3/26 22:40Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1132
Missouri

 Re:

Ron, in all honesty, what else do you want me to say. I am a Calvinist who clearly sees man's free will in scripture. I cannot make you see what I see, but I clearly see it.

Also, I know that in 2,000+ years of Christian history if there is no one you know of that has ever believed the way you do, then that is a problem.

I respectfully disagree with you on this subject and if you desire then we can end it, but I do think we are getting some good understanding accomplished on this topic.

 2007/3/26 22:45Profile









 Re:

Quote:
what do you think when Ron says that there is not such thing as a Will?



There are only two options:

1. The will is under the law of liberty

2. The will is under the law of necessity

Either man does what he does because he [i]wants[/i] to (liberty) or man does what he does because he [i]has[/t] to. There is no other option. Sin is either a result of the abuse of liberty, or sin is the natural and normal result of necessity. But since the bible depicts sin as unnatural and not normal, we must conclude that it is an abuse of the liberty or a wrong use of free-will.

The most common arguement against the free-will of man is the "soveriegnty" of God. They claim this exalts God. But in reality, it down plays man's sin and guilt! If God causes all, then man causes nothing, which leaves God the author of sin just as Beza, Calvins successor at Geneva, said He was.

If God "soveriegnly" controls everything, and always has, then the world has always been exactly the way God has wanted it to be. But is that the picture Genesis paints when it says once God saw man's abuse of their will He wished He didn't make them? (Genesis 6:5-6) Or the Kings that did not "do what was right in the sight of the Lord". Where these scriptures lying?

The truth is, man sins because he wants to not because he has to. All men have the option of obeying the moral truth which the Spirit reveals to their minds as opposed to obeying the cravings and desires of the sensibilities. All men have the power of contrary choice, which is why all men are responsible for every moral action they decide.

 2007/3/27 1:08
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
[Quote]
what do you think when Ron says that there is not such thing as a Will?



There are only two options:

1. The will is under the law of liberty

2. The will is under the law of necessity

But both of your options presume the existence of something called 'the will'. A concept for which I still ask biblical reference.

If this is a biblical construct it ought not to be difficult to find a single veres which clearly points to such a faculty?

Where Jesse and I differ is over the issue of the doctrine of 'congenital sin' and its implications. I can see plenty of evidence for man 'dead in trespasses and sins' I just see no evidence for the hypothesis of 'the will'.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2007/3/27 2:56Profile





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