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JaySaved
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Joined: 2005/7/11
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Kentucky

 Re:

Quote:
No. Christ however, is not the only example. Various saints of old were resurrected after Christ was, and appeared publicly throughout Jerusalem.



Did Jesus have a glorified body or His resurrected natural body? Remember He showed Thomas the nail scars in His hands. Surely this isn't a glorified body or else we will all have the same scars we have now.

Also, were the various saints in Matthew given glorified bodies? I don't think it says.

 2007/3/30 10:50Profile
JaySaved
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Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
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 Re:

Quote:
Also are you saying you dont think their is either a tribulation period or a rapture?



I see the tribulation period as the time around 70 AD in which Jerusalem and the Temple were destroyed by the Romans. See point #5 on my earlier post on 2007/3/29 at 13:13. I believe in the rapture as described in 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thessalonians 4, but I disagree that it occurs before the tribulation because of point #5.

Quote:
I would like to hear your time line of events simply put.


I will do my best with as much wisdom as the Spirit will allow.

Around 33 AD, Jesus said to His disciples, “Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me. In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. And you know the way to where I am going.” (John 14:1-4) After Jesus’ resurrection, He was telling the Disciples—minus Judas—that they are to be His witnesses to all the world. “And when he had said these things, as they were looking on, he was lifted up, and a cloud took him out of their sight. And while they were gazing into heaven as he went, behold, two men stood by them in white robes, and said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.” (Acts 1:9-11)
Jesus promised that He would return for all His believers and the angel confirmed this promise. This “blessed hope and glorious appearing” (Titus 2:13) of Christ is what we as Christians are waiting for and in the meantime the grace of God is “training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age” (Titus 2:12)
Paul told all his churches about this returning of Jesus for His bride and naturally this raised some important questions. One of the first being: “What about those Christians who die before Christ returns? Do they miss out? Paul tells the Thessalonian church, “But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord. Therefore encourage one another with these words. (1 Thess. 4:13-18)
Another question was raised concerning the time concerned the time it would occur. Jesus has been very vague concerning when He would return and Christians wanted to know the “times and seasons” (i.e., tell us exactly when we should expect the return of Christ so we can be ready then. Paul tells the Thessalonians, “Now concerning the times and the seasons, brothers, you have no need to have anything written to you. For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, "There is peace and security," then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief. For you are all children of light, children of the day. We are not of the night or of the darkness. So then let us not sleep, as others do, but let us keep awake and be sober. For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, are drunk at night. But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and for a helmet the hope of salvation. For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us so that whether we are awake or asleep we might live with him. Therefore encourage one another and build one another up, just as you are doing.” (1 Thess. 5:1-11)
Paul says that the return of Christ will be suddenly and without warning. He uses the same example as Jesus in that His return will be “like a thief” in Luke 12:37-40, “Blessed are those servants whom the master finds awake when he comes. Truly, I say to you, he will dress himself for service and have them recline at table, and he will come and serve them. If he comes in the second watch, or in the third, and finds them awake, blessed are those servants! But know this, that if the master of the house had known at what hour the thief was coming, he would not have left his house to be broken into. You also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.” Jesus tells us to be ready and waiting for His coming at any moment and that we should not be caught off guard.
This caused an alarm for some Christians in the Thessalonian church and they became very anxious about being ready. This was fueled by false reports claiming to be from Paul saying that the Lord had recently returned and that they had missed it. They were not ready and this terrified them. Paul sought to reassure them in his second letter to the Thessalonian church. He writes, “Now concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we ask you, brothers, not to be quickly shaken in mind or alarmed, either by a spirit or a spoken word, or a letter seeming to be from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one deceive you in any way. For that day will not come, unless the rebellion comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, who opposes and exalts himself against every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, proclaiming himself to be God. Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? And you know what is restraining him now so that he may be revealed in his time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work. Only he who now restrains it will do so until he is out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will kill with the breath of his mouth and bring to nothing by the appearance of his coming. The coming of the lawless one is by the activity of Satan with all power and false signs and wonders, and with all wicked deception for those who are perishing, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. Therefore God sends them a strong delusion, so that they may believe what is false, in order that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.”
Paul tells them not to be alarmed by false reports and do not be deceived. It is true that Jesus will come unexpectedly and suddenly, but remember what I told you earlier in my letter “For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, "There is peace and security," then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you are not in darkness, brothers, for that day to surprise you like a thief.” (1 Thess 5) Paul tells them that Christians will not be surprised by the Lord’s coming. Then Paul outlines certain things that must come first before Christ returns: 1) Apostasy in church 2) The man of sin in the church—a Judas like false teacher, a son of perdition. 3) False signs and wonders so that those who are perishing will believe a lie.
Peter also speaks of the Lord’s coming and addresses another question: “If the Lord is coming, where is He?” Peter says, “This is now the second letter that I am writing to you, beloved. In both of them I am stirring up your sincere mind by way of reminder, that you should remember the predictions of the holy prophets and the commandment of the Lord and Savior through your apostles, 3knowing this first of all, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own sinful desires. They will say, "Where is the promise of his coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all things are continuing as they were from the beginning of creation." For they deliberately overlook this fact, that the heavens existed long ago, and the earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God, and that by means of these the world that then existed was deluged with water and perished. But by the same word the heavens and earth that now exist are stored up for fire, being kept until the day of judgment and destruction of the ungodly.
But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.” (2 Peter 3:1-10). Peter tells us that Jesus has not returned yet because He is patient waiting for all who will believe to believe. This is also mentioned by Paul in Romans 11:25-27, “Lest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”; “and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins.” Jesus will come once the “fullness of the Gentiles has come in and to remove the hardening placed on Israel. In this all Israel will be saved! This is the reason why Peter says that Jesus is being patient. Peter let’s us know he is speaking of the same thing Paul is because in 2 Peter 3:15-16, “And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.”
So where does this leave us who are alive in 2007? (I will continue this in another post.)

 2007/3/30 11:37Profile
JaySaved
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Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

David,

Wife in Revelation 19:7 is Gune According to Strong's:
Definition
1. a woman of any age, whether a virgin, or married, or a widow
2. a wife
1. of a betrothed woman

Wife can refer to a woman who is betrothed but who has not yet gone through the marriage ceremony. For example:

Matthew 1
18Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
19Then Joseph her husband, being a just man, and not willing to make her a public example, was minded to put her away privily.
20But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
21And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

This fits Revelation 19 in which the bride is betrothed to the bridegroom and Jesus is returning to earth to gather His bride to Himself.

 2007/3/30 12:07Profile
JaySaved
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Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Continued from previous post… (some of this is from a post I made recently.) I know it is long, but it describes how I view the end times as the Bible teaches.

So where does this leave us who are alive in 2007?
First, let us look at the events Paul described in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-7
“Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.”

Paul says that the “coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together unto Him (the day of Christ)” will not happen until there is a “falling away” first. This falling away is in regards to the church. Paul is saying that an apostasy is coming in the church and many professing Christians will turn from the truth.

Then Paul says that the ‘man of sin’ will be revealed. Notice that Paul called the man of sin the ‘son of perdition’? Who else was called a ‘son of perdition’? John 17:12: “While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.”

Who is Jesus referring to? Judas. Judas was a disciple of Christ in Jesus’ inner circle but was a false brother. Paul is clearly connecting the ‘man of sin’ with Judas. Paul is not saying that Judas will return and exalt himself, but that the ‘man of sin’ will be like Judas in that he will be in the church. Paul also says that this man of sin will exalt himself above God.

This man of sin is a greater manifestation of what was already at work in the church. This “spirit of antichrist” was already at work during John's time. He says in 1 John 2:18-19, "Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us."

Who is John referring to? False believers in the church. Here is one example John gives in 3 John 1:9, “I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes, who loveth to have the preeminence among them, receiveth us not.” Also, Paul, Peter and Jude spend much time discussing False Teachers.

Paul then says about the ‘man of sin’, “Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God”

This ‘man of sin’ will be in the “spirit of antichrist” and the “mystery of iniquity”. Paul says “For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way” The spirit of antichrist was already at work in the church during Paul’s and John’s life. This spirit was in the form of false teachers in the church “And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.” (2 Timothy 2:17-18)

Paul says that this spirit of iniquity and antichrist is already in the church but is restrained. What or who is the restraint? Many Christians differ on this. Some think it is the Holy Spirit who will be removed during the rapture, but I do not believe this. The Holy Spirit acts as a restraint against sin, but often is ignored when one slides away from closeness with God. Also, remember Stephen. Stephen was full of the Spirit and all it got him was death. If he had not had the spirit they would have left him alone. So, I do not believe Paul is referring to the Holy Spirit, I believe Paul is referring to the Roman Government.

Edgar Parkyns says in his study of Church History that persecution is God’s instrument to purify His church. For example, when there is no persecution, people who are not sincere will rise into leadership and teach false doctrine. But, when persecution comes, these people are the first to leave. Those who remain in persecution are true followers of Christ and the church is pure. So, I believe that Paul is referring to the Roman government as “him who restrains”. Paul says this restraint will be removed and when it is removed the man of sin will be revealed. Has anything like this happened in history? Yes it has. It is just that we do not want to see it. When the Roman pagan government fell, the persecutions stopped. In fact, the Roman government adopted Christianity as its state religion. You might think this was a good thing but it was not. People were forced to join the church, up until this time a person entered the church through belief, now people are joining for gain. Eventually a "man of sin who exalts himself above God" entered the church in the position of Pope. I know it is unpopular to say that the office of pope is the antichrist/man of sin but what else can a true believer make of it?

Why do I say the antichrist to come is an office and not a particular man? Because 'man of sin' can refer to more than one person just as 'man of God' refers to all Christians. 2 Timothy 3:16-17, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works."

Brothers and sisters, Paul is not telling us to look for a leader of a revived secular roman government, he was telling the church at Thessalonica that they have not missed the coming of the Lord because the man of sin has not appeared. He is also telling us today that we are to look out for false teachers and to remain true to scripture. We are to keep ourselves clean in this world through God and look for our blessed hope and the glorious revealing of Christ in the Second Coming. May He come quickly!

 2007/3/30 13:25Profile
JaySaved
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Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
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 Re:

Condensed version of what I have stated in the longer two emails.

1. Jesus promised He would return for all believers (John 14:1-4)
2. Jesus will keep that promise even though some say He has forgotten. (2 Peter 3:9)
3. Jesus will return like a thief. It will be sudden and catch non-believers off guard, but Christians will not be caught off guard. (1 Thess. 5; 2 Peter 3)
4. Jesus will return to gather His followers: those who are dead first, then we which are alive and remain will be called up. (1 Thess 4:17)
5. Those raptured and resurrected will receive immortal bodies and be with the Lord forever. (1 Cor. 15:35-49)
6. The present heavens and earth will be destroyed (2 Peter 3:10)
7. God will judge all who have ever lived. (Romans 14:10; 2 Corinthians 5:10; Revelation 20:11-12)
Note:For those who only think that the Bema seat only refers to rewards see Matthew 27:19 and John 19:13
8. Those whose names are in the book of life will be given eternal life with God. (Rev 20)
9. Those whose names are not in the book of life will be eternally banished into hell. (Rev 20)
10. The new heavens and new earth will be created and the believers will forever be with God. (Rev 21)

I am back and forth on this issue, but as of today in my studies I do not see a literal 1,000 period in which Jesus will reign in Jerusalem exalting the nation of Israel. I do not see a period of time in which Christians in glorified bodies are hanging around people in non-glorified bodies. I believe that the 1,000 year period signifies a long period of time…as does Peter in 2 Peter 3 and David in Psalm 90:4. Also compare Eccl. 6:6 with Eccl. 6:3

 2007/3/30 13:44Profile
staff
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Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1547


 Re:

Hi Jaysaved,
Thanks for going to such trouble and giving a detailed answer which I am still digesting.
On the literal 1000yr period;When will Christ rule with a rod of Iron if not in a literal millenium.?It wont be in eternity because he wont need to rule with force.
Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and [to] his throne.
I will read you're answer in more detail and come back to you,
rgds staff

 2007/3/30 19:05Profile
psalm1
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Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

Jaysaved,in my greek bible if you read that in context ,in order to make your meaning fit you would have to dismantle several verses in chapter 19.verse 7 says the marriage CAME past tense and wife means wife and thats in context. She has on fine linen just like the saints on the horses. The order of events is clear. Wife in heaven, which means marriage supper is in heaven,wife clothed in fine linnen, riders on horses also have on fine linnen then they go with Jesus to slay the wicked on earth.
Now you say the supper is on earth.....But it is the supper of vultures eating the flesh of the wicked.See rev19;17-18. The marriage supper is clearly in heaven......thanks,David

 2007/3/30 21:38Profile
JaySaved
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Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

True or False:

Jesus is currently on David's throne.

What does Peter say?
Acts 2
22"Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know-- 23this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men. 24God raised him up, loosing the pangs of death, because it was not possible for him to be held by it. 25For David says concerning him,

"'I saw the Lord always before me,
for he is at my right hand that I may not be shaken;
26therefore my heart was glad, and my tongue rejoiced;
my flesh also will dwell in hope.
27For you will not abandon my soul to Hades,
or let your Holy One see corruption.
28You have made known to me the paths of life;
you will make me full of gladness with your presence.'



29"Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants on his throne, 31he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption. 32This Jesus God raised up, and of that we all are witnesses. 33Being therefore exalted at the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, he has poured out this that you yourselves are seeing and hearing. 34For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he himself says,

"'The Lord said to my Lord,
Sit at my right hand,
35until I make your enemies your footstool.'

36Let all the house of Israel therefore know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom you crucified."

When Jesus ascended into heaven and sat down at the right hand of the Father...did He begin to reign on the throne of David?

 2007/3/30 23:26Profile
psalm1
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Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

JaySaved,Ive got a feeling this is a trick question.Ive never looked at it from this angle. I know David is the forerunner of Jesus.And I think David came out of Judah But would have to look it up. Just off the bat I would say it is the other way around-Davids throne pointed to Jesus throne.Is this key to something I am missing?....Maybe I dont undertand the question..What do you think?...let me know, David

 2007/3/31 0:54Profile
JaySaved
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Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

In 2 Samuel 7, God makes David a promise:
"12When your days are fulfilled and you lie down with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring after you, who shall come from your body, and I will establish his kingdom. 13He shall build a house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. 14I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son. When he commits iniquity, I will discipline him with the rod of men, with the stripes of the sons of men, 15but my steadfast love will not depart from him, as I took it from Saul, whom I put away from before you. 16And your house and your kingdom shall be made sure forever before me. Your throne shall be established forever.'"

We see here an immediate fulfillment in Solomon, but an ultimate fulfillment in Jesus. There is even a picture of the crucifixion in here. (Not that Jesus sinned, but that sin was placed on Him.)

Psalm 132:11 says, "The LORD hath sworn in truth unto David; he will not turn from it; Of the fruit of thy body will I set upon thy throne."

Also, in Luke 1:31-32, "And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

So we see that Jesus is the fulfillment of the "seed who will sit on David's throne forever". Peter said in Acts 2:

25For David says concerning him,

"'I saw the Lord always before me, for he is at my right hand that I may not be shaken; 26therefore my heart was glad, and my tongue rejoiced; my flesh also will dwell in hope.
27For you will not abandon my soul to Hades, or let your Holy One see corruption. 28You have made known to me the paths of life; you will make me full of gladness with your presence.'

29"Brothers, I may say to you with confidence about the patriarch David that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day. 30Being therefore a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants on his throne, 31he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption.

So, Jesus is the one to sit on David's throne and rule with a "rod of iron".

The question is: Is Jesus currently on the throne or not?

 2007/3/31 9:23Profile





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