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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Pre-Trib vs. Post-Trib: Pls Include Scripture

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psalm1
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Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

Is there a bride and is there a groom? I know its a dumb quesstion,but where does this tie into Jesus comming for his bride?To me we are overworking the school bus and the children without recogniseing the bus serves 2 purposes.1\transportation 2\destination.once they are in school the bus is forgotten.In other words timing is only part of the equation.Your car can go backwards and forewards.Without reverse your "Up a creek".My point is whats in the back of the book cant contradict the front or middle of the book. do you agree? ,David

 2007/3/28 11:00Profile
JaySaved
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Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Regardless of whether or not the First resurrection and rapture are a couple of seconds apart, the Bible plainly teaches that the First resurrection will happen before the rapture.

The reason I mentioned a second resurrection is because it is described in Revelation 20 as occurring 'at the end of the thousand years', whereas the First Resurrection occurred at the beginning of the 'thousand years'.

My position is that it is not taught in scripture that there will be a secret rapture of the church before a 7 year period of tribulation. It is not taught in scripture that at the end of the tribulation the First Resurrection will occur. I say this because a resurrection has already occurred before this so-called "first resurrection"

The only way to reconcile the pre-trib rapture position is to make the assumption that the First resurrection will occur in many stages and many different times. But if this is true, why doesn't Paul mention this in 1 Cor. 15 or 1 or 2 Thess?

Edit: Clarify my position
1 Cor 15:20-24, "But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power."

Paul says that Christ has been resurrected and then those who are in Christ shall be resurrected at Christ's coming. Then comes the end. There is no multi staged first resurrection of believers mentioned here.

 2007/3/28 11:59Profile
psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

I have not looked as deeply as you have concerning the 2 resurections.But in order to "take a position" [as i guess we all prob. have]There are other factors.which are many.If you could lay aside "resurection" and look objectively at 1\Jesus coming for his bride 2\the 10 virgins 3\the marriage supper 4\the white horses 5\reconciling the 5 foolish virgins 6\reconciling the post or no rapture w\ [they never see heaven] 7\the antichrist wipes out almost all the christians. which makes me wonder "who are the[those that are alive and remain?] to catch up?There is NOTHING left out in the pre- trib position,but so many loose ends on the other positions.Am i wrong?.....thanks,David

 2007/3/28 15:30Profile
staff
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Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1547


 Re:

Hi lovegrace,
Not much love grace in you're response i'm afraid and I can speak English.Also the theology is copied from the bible.To add you could have limited you're response to a scriptural response instead.

What I was saying was Jesus was the first to be resurrected,we also had the saints from the graves in Matthew,We then had the two witnesses In rev and also the saints who did not worship the beast.
These are four different groups/individuals that were resurrected at four different times and all had to be part of the first resurrection because they werent part of the second resurrection.
So we can't say that the first resurrection was a single event at a specific time.The saints who did not worship the beast were only part of the first resurrection.So you can see that I could now include the pretrib rapture has part of the first resurrection as well as the others above.
If you did not want to call the First resurrection a category,you could call it a series of resurrections that occured at different times'
staff

 2007/3/28 18:19Profile
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1547


 Re:

Hi Jaysaved,
Just wondering do you see a gap between verse 23 and 24.Twenty four seems to be talking about his millenial reign and the end is after that.If that is the case the "coming" mentioned in 23 could be the rapture, could it not.

1Cr 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1Cr 15:24 Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

1Cr 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

1Cr 15:26 The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death.
rgds staff

 2007/3/28 19:42Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Quote:
Hi Jaysaved,
Just wondering do you see a gap between verse 23 and 24.Twenty four seems to be talking about his millenial reign and the end is after that. If that is the case the "coming" mentioned in 23 could be the rapture, could it not.



1Cr 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

1Cr 15:24 Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

1Cr 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

1Cr 15:26 The last enemy [that] shall be destroyed [is] death.


I do not see a gap in between verses 23 and 24 other than the fact that “after Christ comes; the end will come.” The question that must also be answered is if the Corinthians church would have seen a “gap” in between these two verses. I doubt they would.

When I read these verses I see that resurrections happen in the proper order. First, Christ. Then, those who resurrect at the coming of Christ spoken of in 1 Thess. 4. (Paul later in 1 Cor. 15 tells them exactly what he told the Thess about the ‘changing of those Christians who are alive at the coming of Christ.)

(If I were to take a literal millennial view)
Paul in these verses is saying that Christ was raised first. Then when Christ returns, all Christians who have died will be resurrected (and those alive will be changed). Then, Christ will immediately set up His millennial kingdom and reign till all enemies are destroyed, the last being death.

I don’t see any mention in these verses of a 7 year period of tribulation or a secret rapture. Or two comings of Christ 7 years apart.

 2007/3/29 10:09Profile
vico
Member



Joined: 2005/5/25
Posts: 258


 Re:

Hey guys, haven't you ever read the "Left Behind" series???

I'm sure if you read them, they'd clear up any misunderstandings you have about the end-times ;-) :-P :knockedout:


j/k


But seriously now...
How does this effect us? How will/should this effect our relationship with God? I ask this in all seriousness, i'm curious, and i would like to know. I'm sure it does in some way effect the way we see life, but i'd like to hear how it's changed you guys! :-)



least of all,
~vico

 2007/3/29 11:27Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Quote:
But seriously now...
How does this effect us? How will/should this effect our relationship with God? I ask this in all seriousness, i'm curious, and i would like to know. I'm sure it does in some way effect the way we see life, but i'd like to hear how it's changed you guys!



When I began to see that Revelation was written by God as a picture of church history--written in code language--my faith began to grow even more! I always viewed Revelation as a dark and mysterious book of 1,000 lbs hail stones and a lake of blood that extends for many miles. I was either afraid to read it or I was too caught up into what 'others' had to say about it.

But this book was written to the church, for the church, concerning the church. God has told us beforehand everything that would happen in church history from the fall of pagan rome, to the blasphemies of the catholic popes, to the rise of Islam, the Turkish occupation of Constantinople, to the information age.

Instead of church history being a big scattered mess, I see it through the eyes of Revelation as all part of God's plan. It reaffirms that God is in control and we will see the end very soon.

Also, it reminds me that I should interpret scripture by scripture. No longer will I assume something to be true just because the "loudest expositor" says so.

My faith in Christ has grown and I eagerly await that blessed hope and glorious appearing of Christ. May He come quickly!!

 2007/3/29 11:37Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Also, I must agree with what this person has said:

One particularly strange aspect of the Dispensational system is that the Messianic kingdom will involve 1000 years of mingling resurrected, glorified believers and non-resurrected, mortal men.
According to traditional dispensationalism the place of Christ's throne will be in literal Jerusalem on earth for a 1000 year political reign. J. Dwight Pentecost and Charles Ryrie write extensively that within the millennial kingdom there will be the glorified redeemed who came down from heaven with Christ, the saved mortals and the unsaved mortals who eventually rebel against Christ. In other words, for 1000 years these glorified people live without sickness, weakness, or death among unresurrected men and women who, though they live longer life spans, still get sick and die. And incredibly, these unresurrected mortals attempt to attack these 1000 year old, glorified immortal people!
This feature of dispensationalism is one of the most absurd.

http://fide-o.blogspot.com/2007/03/meer-immortals.html

 2007/3/29 11:40Profile
vico
Member



Joined: 2005/5/25
Posts: 258


 Re:

Amen Brother!
Thats the kind of answer i was looking for!
I appreciate it.

Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

least of all,
~vico

 2007/3/29 11:42Profile





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