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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Pre-Trib vs. Post-Trib: Pls Include Scripture

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Stampe
Member



Joined: 2007/3/20
Posts: 12
Copenhagen/Denmark

 Re:

Greetings everyone

Staff Wrote:

Quote:
JESUS CANT COME BACK TODAY!,according to post tribbers because the great tribulation has to happen first.How do you reconcile that in your mind. The only way to reconcile the very different scriptures is that their is one messiah and two comings



There is another way!

There is just one second coming of the Messiah but two different groups of people:

1) Those who will be in the light, ready, awake and watching

2) Those who will be in the dark, slumbering and sleeping

Do the scriptures agree with this view? Yes it does...

[i][b]"For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief" (1 THESSALONIANS 2:2-4)[/b][/i]

For some, it will be as a thief in the night, but for others it should not be like that...

...Jesus clearly spoke of the signs of His coming, and there will be those who will be watching and who will have prepared themselves as they remained awake and watchful. Unfortunately, there will also be those whom are not watching, but are fast asleep :-(

Love,

Stampe


_________________
Carsten Stampe Jorgensen

 2007/3/21 20:40Profile
Stampe
Member



Joined: 2007/3/20
Posts: 12
Copenhagen/Denmark

 Re:

Psalm asked:

Quote:
are you saying the great and terrible day of the Lord is the same as the great tribulation?



No, I am saying they are two different events, and that the great tribulation preceeds the great and terrible day of the Lord.

And also I will like to say that I think the Apostle Paul got it right when he told the Thessalonians, that the day of the Lord and our gathering together unto Jesus would not come except there be a falling away first and the man of sin is revealed...

Of course it could also be that Paul did not think that neither he nor the Thessalonians qualified for the pre-tribulation rapture, but rather deserved to be left behind to face the persecution of the Anti-christ. If so, if the apostle Paul did not qualify for this pre-trib rapture, then who among us does?

It could also be that Paul did not mention the pre-trib rapture because it is secret... :-D

God bless,

Stampe


_________________
Carsten Stampe Jorgensen

 2007/3/21 21:18Profile
psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

hi stampe, Do you think The great and terrible day of the Lord is the same as the rapture? This is the order of events as I see it; Jesus comes for his remnant bride[the rapture],while they are in heaven the ones left behind and all of mankind go through the trib. and great trib..the antichrist murders almost all the christians.the 5 wise virgins are exempt because they have kept their "oil" at the right level.[remember the marters "washed their robes"]also the marriage supper of the Lamb happens in heaven with the bride.Remember anyone that is physically on this earth [In posttrib. cenerio] never sees heaven. Then Jesus comes after the great trib. on white horses with the saints.Is this correct?......God bless,David

 2007/3/22 10:09Profile
Stampe
Member



Joined: 2007/3/20
Posts: 12
Copenhagen/Denmark

 Re:

Dear David,
The view you have presented is the popular view of the Left Behind books and movies, but I believe this view not to be in accordance with scripture.

You asked me whether I believe that the rapture will take place at the great and terrible day of the Lord, and that will be a yes.

Just as when Lot left Sodom and Gomorra and Moses and his family entered the ark before the judgement fell, so will the righteous be taken out before the wrath of God is poured out upon this world.

So, where is the confusion? I believe the confusion has come with the assumption that the great tribulation and the great and terrible day of the Lord are the same, when they are not. According to Joel 2:31 the Sun shall be darkened and the moon turned into blood before the great and terrible day of the Lord, and according to Jesus in Matthew 24:29 the darkening of the sun and the moon takes place immediately after the tribulation...

Yes, the believers will be taken out before the wrath of God is poured out - we all believe that, but where we differ, is on whether the great tribulation is the wrath of God or not.

I believe that if we look at the seven seals in Revelation 6 we discover the sequence of events: There is a time of great tribulation with persecuted and martyred saints followed by the darkening of the sun and the moon at the sixth seal. After that, in accordance with Jesus words in Matt. 24:29-30, the powers of heaven and earth are shaken and then in Rev. 6:17 it says:

[i][b]"For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"[/b][/i]

I hope by the grace of God I have been able to be clear.

God bless,

Stampe


_________________
Carsten Stampe Jorgensen

 2007/3/22 13:23Profile









 Re: Pre-Trib vs. Post-Trib: Pls Include Scripture

First of all, show me in scripture where there is a "7 Year tribulation"?

You can't, all you'll find is wishful thinking for a pre, mid, and post tribulation teaching.

However, Jesus did say that in the world we will have tribulation, but be of good courage, I have overcome the world. In other words, because I overcame, you will too.

 2007/3/22 16:31
Stampe
Member



Joined: 2007/3/20
Posts: 12
Copenhagen/Denmark

 Re:

You stated:

[i][b]First of all, show me in scripture where there is a "7 Year tribulation"?[/b][/i]

You have a good point. I am not sure there is a scripture that tells us point blank that the tribulation period is 7 years. That is not to say that it is not, but...

Jesus did mention a period of tribulation called the great tribulation, of which He told His disciples. From other scriptures in Daniel and Revelation we can see that this time is actually 1260 days or "a time, times and a half". This tribulation is to preceed the darkening of the sun and the moon and the great and terrible day of the Lord...

God bless,

Stampe


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Carsten Stampe Jorgensen

 2007/3/22 16:50Profile
psalm1
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 1230


 Re:

hi Stampe, I just went back and read rev,5-10. I still dont see what you are talking about.I mainly dont see how "the wrath of the Lamb" marks a change in anything except just what it says.I may be missing it but it doesent seem to usher in or out anything.It appears to me that Jesus is passing judgement on the inhabitants of earth,and is not tied to a rapture or his second coming.I think maybe you are making this pivotal when it is not.You take a shot at me through "left behind" books.I never looked at the events I have laid out as unscriptural,being that I got them from the bible.Anyway all I am trying to do is see what you are meaning by "the great and terrible day of the Lord" The fact that the sun and moon are connected still [to me] doesnt place on it the significance you ascribe to it.Am I wrong?....Thanks,David

 2007/3/22 16:51Profile









 Re:

Quote:
That is not to say that it is not, but..



There's always a 'But'! :-P

 2007/3/22 17:02
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1547


 Re:

Hi Stampe,
I would have to disagree again especially on the this:
[u][i][size=xx-small]
There is another way!

There is just one second coming of the Messiah but two different groups of people:

1) Those who will be in the light, ready, awake and watching

2) Those who will be in the dark, slumbering and sleeping

Do the scriptures agree with this view? Yes it does...[/size][/i][/u]

1Thess 2.24 doesnt help the post trib argument any because we have 2 choices: the two groups the ones ready and the ones not are Christian or One is Christian and one is not.
If we take the group as your say "Those who will be in the light, ready, awake and watching".What are they watching for?answer Christ's Return.When does it happen?according to you after the tribulation.
So Jesus still cant come back today because according to you the ready group are waiting for a post tribulation coming only.

My view of 1 thess 2.24 is that the not ready group are unsaved(this does not affect the rapture debate one way or the other as regards timing)
I think the post trib view doesnt get Christians ready for Christ's Return at all.
It gets them ready for tribulation but Christ said get ready for his return.The emphasis was on Christ not on tribulation.Getting ready for tribulation how do you do it?Run down to the local supermarket and horde tin beans!It still isnt reconciled post tribbers have to go through tribulation first.
Rgds Staff

 2007/3/22 18:25Profile
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1547


 Re:

Hi,
The tribulation or "the time of Jacob's Trouble" is three and a half yrs long and is the second half of Daniel's Seventh wk.The first half I believe is called the "beginning of sorrows".


As for the day of the lord, the passage below describes two days rather than one.The "great" day is one and the "dreadful" day is another.I believe it is called telescoping for some reason. The great day was the day he died on the cross and more generally the 3 and a half yr ministry of Jesus.The dreadful day is the 3 and a half yr tribulation period.

Mal 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD

However to some people Christs 1st coming was dreadful and Christs Second Coming will appear great to some people in smaller measure.
So Elijah must come again,we can see this fulfilled in the two witness ministry of Revelations.
Rgds Staff

 2007/3/22 18:41Profile





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