| Re: |
"Notice what these verses do not say. They do not say that the bride is in heaven. The verses simply say that the time has come for the marriage of the Lamb. The marriage comes when Jesus goes to get His bride."
Have you read in the scriptures;"29But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom."
The bride is in heaven after the rapture.Jesus even prophesied this at the last supper.
Note that in rev 19 she is no longer the bride,but the wife,indicating the consummation has happened,in heaven,according to Jesus' prophecy.
| 2011/9/27 12:43||Profile|
| Re: |
"He's right up my alley because he does not attack anyone in the Pre-Trib camp or any camp, he just submits his evidence Biblically."
I wonder what he would say to this scripture?;
luke 21,36Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
| 2011/9/27 12:49||Profile|
| Re: Weighing in|
Take a look at 2 Thes.2:1-4, actually the whole chapter is a good read. But in those verses Paul is teaching that the rapture or our being gathered in Jesus will not occur until the man of lawlessness or antochrist is revealed. This suggest that believers will go through the tribulation.
The idea of a pretrib rapture is a modern invention of western theology that came about in the 19th century. Gentlemen such ad Darby and Scoffield developed this teaching. It has been perfected to its current state by people such as Hal Lindsey.
The drawback of this teaching is there is no teaching of taking up your cross to follow Jesus. One is simply taught have your ticket and your are beamed up to heaven just like Capt Kirk away from the bad ole tribulation. Sounds nice to the western mindset. The only thing this pretrib idea ain't in the Bible.
Historically the believing church of Jesus Christ has always taught that the church is s suffering church. Two thousand years of church history have taught this. The testimony of martyrs, past and present, have born this reality out. One can go to the restricted nations today and not hear teaching on a pretrib rapture. What you will hear is teaching and see lived out a cross that Jesus himself bore 2000 years ago.
I invite any reading this post to go to Brandy Leigh's post under Iranian Pastor Sentenced to be Hung in Current Events. She copied a letter from Youcef Nadarkhani, the Iranian pastor who may be martyred. In that letter you get an idea of what the persecuted church believes. I assure you. It ain't a pretrib rapture.
| 2011/9/27 13:48|
| Re: |
Blaine, I agree with you. For ten years i listened to these scriptures being used in a loose way. Then i picked up the Word of God and began to investigate the claims as well. I too found it VERY uncanny that this theory did not come about till 1840. And through reading the olivet discourses and the Gospel of John i definetly do not attend to the pretrib theory. If Jesus says many times in the Gospel of John, "I will raise him, you, up at the last day", then how does the secret rapture of the Christians fit in with His words? That would make the rapture the second coming, right?
| 2011/9/27 15:23||Profile|
| Re: Gators52|
As I understand the New Testament there is only one general resurrection taught and that will be at the return of Jesus Christ. I think this is clearly taught in 1 Cor.15. One would be hard pressed to say the New Testament taught a secret rapture then a more general resurrection. So what we call the rapture is really the retturn of Jesus Christ.
I have another problem with this pretrib view. The fact that part of the body is in heaven having a party while those poor souls that have been left behind are just trying to hang on until Jesus comes in the general resurrection. Whereas we would say that Tim LaHayes Left Behind serious is fiction, that is what this view is, fiction.
| 2011/9/27 15:39|
| Re: |
"This suggest that believers will go through the tribulation."
Does not suggest any such thing.
Let us read what is says."3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"
How in the world does this verse deny a pretrib rapture?
Are you saying that in the event that the anticrist is REVEALED 10 minutes before the rapture the pretrib position is nullified?
The antichrist could be revealed way before he comes to power.The unbelievers are oblivious and mocking of any warning anyway.
2Thes 2;8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness
"The drawback of this teaching is there is no teaching of taking up your cross to follow Jesus. One is simply taught have your ticket and your are beamed up to heaven just like Capt Kirk away from the bad ole tribulation."
Too bad you take such a low path of mocking those that read their bibles and take Jesus at his word.
Have you ever used scripture instead of mocking to establish your position?
You are basically accusing the 5 wise virgins of evil.
| 2011/9/27 22:04||Profile|
| Re: |
"One can go to the restricted nations today and not hear teaching on a pretrib rapture."
One can go to restricted nations and hear all kinds of false doctrine.
Doesn't change the way my bible reads.
What a shame to verify what God says through one's perception of another's experience
There is no way anyone knows what is NOT heard in other nations anyway.
I would never,ever base my bible's authority on such a premise.
| 2011/9/27 22:12||Profile|
| Re: Pre-, Mid-, Post-, Tribulations.|
by staff on 2007/3/21 16:21:48 writes:
"How do you reconcile the coming in luke 17.26 which clearly happens in a time of worldly peace with a coming just after the tribulation? as described in:
Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."
How do you reconcile the immenant return of Christ with having to wait for a tribulation to happen?"
I did not see any posts on the mid tribulation rapture position.
Having studied these 3 raptures theories for many years, I came to the follow conclusion:
All three positions are correct. The one that you personally believe in is the one that you will be raptured in.
As for me, luckily it just happens to be that I am a strong believer in a Pre-tribulation rapture. I will be keeping tabs in Heaven on all you mid and post - Tribbers. Hang in there. :)
In Corinthians, his earliest letters, Paul expressed his belief that the Tribulation was imminent, so much so that he discouraged Christians from Marrying so as to avoid suffering the pain of having ones spouse or Children suffering before their eyes during the Tribulation. In his latter letters Paul backed off of his initial position of the 'imminent' Tribulation.
On a less serious matter, I had a dream revealing what the rapture is like. Our Spirits go straight up to Heaven. There are two gates through which formerly married men enter Heaven. One was for henpecked husbands, this was a very very long line of men who were just raptured. And the second Gate were for the non-henpecked men, men who were masters of their homes. This was a very short line.
I was standing on the very short line. I received a telepathic message from a life long friend who was Henpecked. I couldn't see him he was way back in his line, it probably will take months for him to get into Heaven. He asked how I merited getting onto the non-henpecked married man line. I sent a telepathic message back to him. I said, "I do not know, my wife told me to stand here." :)
Once I got into Heaven, and it is fantastic, but I noticed there was a great and long wall in Heaven. An angel was assigned to me for orientation. So I asked my assigned angel, why a wall? What is on the other side of that wall? The Angel responded, in lightening speed, and gave me understanding. On the other side of the wall were all the saved Catholic Christians. And the WALL is there because if they knew all the non-Catholic Christians are also in Heaven, it just would not be Heaven for them. :)
We try to imagine how the future will be, how will it all turn out. And all I can offer is something that William Shakespeare wrote: "There are more things in heaven and earth, ... Than are dreamt of in your philosophy."
And I do not comment on the Book of Revelation because I do not understand its' prophecies at all.
| 2011/9/27 22:18||Profile|
| Re: |
"I have another problem with this pretrib view. The fact that part of the body is in heaven having a party while those poor souls that have been left behind are just trying to hang on until Jesus comes in the general resurrection. Whereas we would say that Tim LaHayes Left Behind serious is fiction, that is what this view is, fiction."
The word of God is clear.There are those who deal with anticrist.It is also clear he kills them all.
7And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Tim Lahay may help you in some way,but it is a shame you base your doctrine primarily apart from the word.
| 2011/9/27 22:23||Profile|
| Re: |
Over the years I have heard a hundred times things like
"those in prisons are not going to believe in the rapture"
"The rapture folks are just escape minded"
"The rapture folks are going to go down when they find out they do go through the tribulation"
They speak not of their own discipline and responsibility,and instead mock those that believe what Jesus says.I suppose they seek sanctuary in pointing the finger and falsely judging the saints that are keeping pure and watching for their groom.How sad to base their doctrine on such folly.
In other words 99% of Christians look at end times through the prism of the great tribulation.
Jesus,on the other hand,looks to the wedding and gathering of his bride.
This view from Jesus' perspective,is the relevant issue.
Forget the tribulation.It has a purpose,and that purpose is made clear by the word.Focus instead on the bridegroom and his plan for his bride.
Those that mock pretribbers seem to shy away from Jesus purpose with his bride.
| 2011/9/27 22:57||Profile|