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 Re: Prevenient Grace


Greetings brethren,

I have not been following this thread, but I am interested in understanding what the contention is about.

I find pictures helpful, so here are two. One is of the father of the prodigal watching for him, even on the days when he was still in the pigpen. He was already to welcome him, but this seems to have had nothing to do with what was going on in the son's heart and mind.

It also seems from the way the story is told, that the father saw the son returning, long before the son saw the father. But the son knew where the house was, and was heading directly that way - not to somewhere else. They were too far apart to hear each other, but the vision was in both hearts.

The other picture is of the hearing in an unborn child, which is one of the first faculties to be settled into working order. Of course, nothing sounds clear in there, but, the impact of love or hate makes its mark. In the same way, we hear God speaking to us almost in riddles, before we are born again, but this need to know what He is [i]really[/i] talking about, helps to draws a person to the point at which they can be convicted to the point of repentance.

God uses all kinds of things to crush a person's naturally rebellious instincts, until the pros of obedience overcome the cons of disobedience.

This too, is part of human nature - to want to take the easy way out. God turns up the heat until even to be identified with Jesus' death, is a relief.

Jay said

Quote:
I guess we need to determine how his outstretched hands' corresponds to the fact that God has hardened the majority of the Jews.

Is this a discussion merely about Jews coming to the Lord?

I think the answer lies in the way the writer to the Hebrews explains what happened in the desert - that even in the face of incontrovertible proof of God's love to them through the miracles of manna and the rock which gave water (and others miracles), they preferred the gods of Egypt, which they had also brought with them. And, they broke their word to God that they would listen to Moses if God would go on speaking to him.

Jay, I've been thinking about this whole thing a great deal, because of the replacement theology threads. And I'm beginning to conclude that part of God's plan was to reveal His nature through the law. That's why Moses face shone after he had received it. It was a massive improvement on the rules governing bondage under which they had all served in Egypt.

But obviously, God knew the law would only prove to the people how sinful they were. This applies just as much to any gentile who tries to keep the law. The whole point is that it proves we are destitute. They needed God to accept their sacrifices, and these were extremely precise - or they didn't count... the wrong sacrifices would just added to the sinfulness of the people. This was all intentional on God's part, because He had always intended us to be able to live a life naturally pleasing to Him.

When the law was given, it was intended as a blessing - a way of God and His people keeping in touch with each other. But by the time Paul is writing about it, it had become a burden that separated man from God.... and this was exactly God's intention.... to make mankind understand the difference, and that pleasing himself, was not able to please God simultaneously.

I know Romans also says that God hardens people, but it seems they have something to do with that, through unbelief.

Hebrews 3 (NASB: Capital letters denote OT quote)

7 Therefore, just as the Holy Spirit says, "TODAY IF YOU HEAR HIS VOICE,

8 DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS AS WHEN THEY PROVOKED ME, AS IN THE DAY OF TRIAL IN THE WILDERNESS,

9 WHERE YOUR FATHERS TRIED Me BY TESTING Me, AND SAW MY WORKS FOR FORTY YEARS.

10 "THEREFORE I WAS ANGRY WITH THIS GENERATION, AND SAID, `THEY ALWAYS GO ASTRAY IN THEIR HEART, AND THEY DID NOT KNOW MY WAYS';

11 AS I SWORE IN MY WRATH, `THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST.' "

12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God.


This translation accords with Tyndale who says 'do not wax hard-hearted...'.

God loves people. He seeks their consent to be joined to Him.

 2007/3/14 7:33
Christinyou
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Joined: 2005/11/2
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 Re:

Quote: Jeff

"Salvation has never required man's works"

Amen and try to tell man this, there are few that understand. The Law or Grace, Choose.

Old testament salvation by Law, New Testament salvation by Grace. They don't mix. Israel, the Wife of God and The Church, the Body of Christ His Bride.

The Gospel hidden, Christ In you. The old gospel looking for Messiah, the new gospel of Paul in Jesus Christ, His is come and now is in you because you believe.

John 3:16-18 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

In Christ: Phillip


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Phillip

 2007/3/14 21:33Profile
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 Re:

Brother Phillip wrote:

"Old testament salvation by Law, New Testament salvation by Grace. They don't mix. Israel, the Wife of God and The Church, the Body of Christ His Bride."

Romans 4:
13 For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect, 15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.


Salvation never, never, ever came through obey the law on Mount Sinai. What is Paul teaching in the verses above?

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2007/3/14 22:38Profile
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 Re:

Sis wrote:

Quote:
I know Romans also says that God hardens people, but it seems they have something to do with that, through unbelief.



That is the essensence of this thread.

God speaks to all men by His Holy Spirit. There are those who walk for a time and then disconnect themselves from the vine. Others reject God outright. Yet all are subject to the wrath of God because of the Law given on Mount Sinai. By what means has God provided that men might find salvation?

What does Scripture say?


Proverbs 1:

Wisdom calls aloud outside;
She raises her voice in the open squares.
21 She cries out in the *chief concourses,
At the openings of the gates in the city
She speaks her words:
22 "How long, you simple ones, will you love simplicity?
For scorners delight in their scorning,
And fools hate knowledge.
23 Turn at my rebuke;
Surely I will pour out my spirit on you;
I will make my words known to you.
24 Because I have called and you refused,
I have stretched out my hand and no one regarded,
25 Because you disdained all my counsel,
And would have none of my rebuke,
26 I also will laugh at your calamity;
I will mock when your terror comes,
27 When your terror comes like a storm,
And your destruction comes like a whirlwind,
When distress and anguish come upon you.


28 "Then they will call on me, but I will not answer;
They will seek me diligently, but they will not find me.
29 Because they hated knowledge
And did not choose the fear of the Lord,
30 They would have none of my counsel
And despised my every rebuke.
31 Therefore they shall eat the fruit of their own way,
And be filled to the full with their own fancies.

God supplies the provision, here the mystery is found in "wisdom" from God.

Yet what do most men do with this "wisdom" that is freely given from God?

What does Scripture say?

And then what happens to those who continually reject "wisdom?"

What does Scripture say?

30 They would have none of my counsel
And despised my every rebuke.
31 Therefore they shall eat the fruit of their own way,
And be filled to the full with their own fancies.

Finally, what does it mean for the individual God gives up on?

31 Therefore they shall eat the fruit of their own way,
And be filled to the full with their own fancies.

This verse is also illustrated by Paul's teachings found in Romans 1:

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind,

When God gives one over to the fancies of their own mind what happens to their hearts?

What does Scripture say?

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2007/3/14 22:53Profile
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 Re:

What does the parable of the sower have to do with this thread?

Are you willing to submit to the word of God?

Are you willing to grow patiently so that the word brings fruit?

Or does unbelief rule?

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2007/3/14 22:56Profile
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1 John 1:5-10 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

1 John 5:18-20 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness. And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

1 John 5:11-13 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Galatians 2:19-21 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Colossians 1:25-29 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Is this what you are speaking of?

In Christ: Phillip


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 Re:

Brother Phillip asked:

Quote:
Is this what you are speaking of?



I sort of lost you, which post are you refering to?

In Christ
Jeff


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 2007/3/15 20:23Profile
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 Re:

Jeff wrote: Quote

""What does the parable of the sower have to do with this thread?

Are you willing to submit to the word of God?

Are you willing to grow patiently so that the word brings fruit?

Or does unbelief rule""



Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

The Sower; "According as He hath chosen us in Him".

Eph 1 is the epitome of Gods Plan from before the foundation of the world. It is Gods pleasure to say who His son's will be. Then it is His pleasure to be sure that the son's He chooses are what He wants them to be. It is Christ the Son that He wants us to be. He has provided that in all that are His. This will not set with you in a believing privilege understanding of truth. But, God has only One Son. We are chosen in Him before the foundation of the world ever began or before Adam and Eve were created.

How could a created being come to this place of a son being made of the dust of the ground. God had to birth a Son in a creation for the creation to be a fellow heir with The Only Begotten Son He has. So how? By being Born Again. A new creation. One Son in many sons' as many different expressions of the Only Son.

Christ must be in you as a new life that we in Christ must live. All of Eph 1, is this plan and the coming together of the Plan of God to bring son's into His House. We in Christ are heavenly beings, even in Christ and Christ in us already, by the birthing which can only come from a physical being sacrificed to justify God birthing not the physical sacrifice in us, but being birthed by the Spirit of Christ that we could then be called sons' of God. That is what the Sower is all about.

Ephesians 1:1-23 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints, Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers; That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him: The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints, And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

In Christ by God before the foundation of the World and After the Cross, all else is bringing God's creation to that point. God used many ways to bring His creation to that perfect point in Time, "Gen 4:3 And in process of time it came to pass, that Cain brought of the fruit of the ground an offering unto the LORD.

Gen 38:12 And in process of time the daughter of Shuah Judah's wife died; and Judah was comforted, and went up unto his sheepshearers to Timnath, he and his friend Hirah the Adullamite.

Exd 2:23 And it came to pass in process of time, that the king of Egypt died: and the children of Israel sighed by reason of the bondage, and they cried, and their cry came up unto God by reason of the bondage.

Jdg 11:4 And it came to pass in process of time, that the children of Ammon made war against Israel.

Job 22:16 Which were cut down out of time, whose foundation was overflown with a flood:

Dan 7:25 And he shall speak [great] words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.

Luk 4:5 And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.

1Pe 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

Innocent Adam, guilty Cain, conscience, Israel seared in conscience, Promise of Christ, Government destroyed by judgment, Law producing death, promise received in the fullness of time.
Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, (that we might come to the Glory of God) Colossians 1:25-29 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

This is God fulfillment of the Word of God, that is, which was hid from all generation until Paul was given this perfection of the creation as God chooses His own sons'. "Christ In you the Hope of Glory" being joined to Him in crucifixion and resurrection and a new Being that is God in Christ bring forth sons'.

Galatians 2:17-20 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

In Christ, by God the Father and Jesus Christ the Son, and the Holy Spirit Teacher of this new life: Phillip


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Phillip

 2007/3/15 21:12Profile
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 Re:

Brother Phillip;

I was asking these questions in reference to...

What does it mean when God turns one over to their own "fancies."

What happens as a result of this action by God?

Is it not inevitable according to Scripture that their hearts are hardened?

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2007/3/16 6:14Profile
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 Re:

Rom 1:18 ¶ For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed [it] unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.


Paul teaches that all are subjected to the Holy Spirit. How can I say this?

Proverbs 1:
Pro 1:20 ¶ Wisdom crieth without; she uttereth her voice in the streets:

21 She crieth in the chief place of concourse, in the openings of the gates: in the city she uttereth her words, [saying],

22 How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge?

23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you.

24 Because I have called, and ye refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man regarded;

25 But ye have set at nought all my counsel, and would none of my reproof:

The Light is availiable to all men...

Jhn 1:9 [That] was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

What if men reject that Light?

Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

This precept is found in the whole counsel of God...

Pro 1:28 Then shall they call upon me, but I will not answer; they shall seek me early, but they shall not find me:
29 For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD:
30 They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.


Pro 1:31 Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, and be filled with their own devices.


"...they eat of the fruit of their own way, and filled with their own devices."

Hbr 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.

13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;



Do you hear what Scripture is teaching here?

In Christ
Jeff


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 2007/3/18 9:40Profile





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