SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Image Map
Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Prevenient Grace

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 Next Page )
PosterThread
MikeH
Member



Joined: 2006/9/21
Posts: 116


 Re:

Jaysaved wrote:

Quote:
Because scripture tells us that [b]all who are called are justified[/b] and [b]all who are drawn are raised[/b]. Since not all people are justified and raised we must assume that this calling is not common to call men.

I am joining this conversation late, but you seem to quote only the parts of the verse that fit your doctrine and therefore end up making a false deduction.

[color=009900]John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.[/color]

Earlier you refered to the two 'him's, but forgot the man. No man can come unless he is drawn, totally consistent with Paul who said [color=009900]Romans 3:11 ...there is none that seeketh after God.[/color] The question is, does the Father draw any others than those that come. The verse does not say and it is illogical to try to make it say something about those that didn't come, they are not part of the discussion, which is all about those [color=009900]John 6:39 ...all which he [the Father] hath given me... and John 6:40 ...every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him...[/color] But those that don't come, aren't given, and don't see the Son and believe on Him are not in focus at this point. Personally, I believe God calls all, though I might have to restrict myself to many to be totally scriptural, [color=009900]Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen,[/color] but then again [color=009900]Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely[/color] suggests maybe it is all that are called, after all.

[color=009900]Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.[/color]

Exactly the same, you limit yourself to the 'called', not recognising that this refers back to the 'predestinated'. In fact if we go back further this relates to those that are 'foreknown', but it does not say anything about those that are do not respond. Again they could be 'called' and yet not respond without undermining in any way the statement that Paul is making. To avoid further dispute, please note the 'called' in Rom 8:28 is not the same 'called' as in Rom 8:30, rather it relates more to the predestined than the 'bidden/called'.

If these passages are talking to any controversial doctrine, they relate to predestination, rather than prevenient grace. [b]My question to you is why are you so against prevenient grace?[/b] God called me from an early age, and reminded me of His call several times, before I was saved. I would not have sought Him. I am very, very grateful for prevenient grace, I neither deserved to be saved, nor to be called, but He was gracious enough to do both, because He loved me. Does that mean that He neither loves, nor calls those that do not become Christians, I think not. [color=009900]Luke 8:5 A sower went out to sow his seed (the word of God): and as he sowed, some fell by the way side; and it was trodden down, and the fowls of the air devoured it.[/color] For some reason, in some lives, the seed never gets into the ground and it never grows unto salvation; the devil has a lot to do with that.

Blessings
Mike

 2007/3/12 6:14Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Quote:
How blessed we are to be able to disagree so openly, and not get shot, or have to pick up dueling swords!



How blessed we are that we can disagree on this yet still go out into the world and proclaim the savior power of Jesus Christ!

Quote:
I am joining this conversation late,



Welcome brother!

Quote:
...but you seem to quote only the parts of the verse that fit your doctrine and therefore end up making a false deduction.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Earlier you refered to the two 'him's, but forgot the man. No man can come unless he is drawn, totally consistent with Paul who said Romans 3:11 ...there is none that seeketh after God.



I agree with you so far. No one can come unless he is drawn because there is none that seek after God without God's drawing. He initiates the process.

Quote:
The question is, does the Father draw any others than those that come.



I am so glad you said this. You admit that the clear understanding of John 6:44 is that 'him who is draw will be raised at the last day'. You are now asking if there are others drawn that do not come.

Quote:
The verse does not say and it is illogical to try to make it say something about those that didn't come, they are not part of the discussion, which is all about those John 6:39 ...all which he [the Father] hath given me... and John 6:40 ...every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him... But those that don't come, aren't given, and don't see the Son and believe on Him are not in focus at this point.



Ok. Let me see if I understand your point. You say that the context of John 6:44 are only those people who are 'given by the Father to the Son' and 'see the Son and believe'. It is only this group that are drawn and raised at the last day. Those who do not come to the Son are not given and do see the son and believe. This group is not part of John 6:44.

I totally agree. I don't understand how you disagree with my statement.

Quote:
Personally, I believe God calls all, though I might have to restrict myself to many to be totally scriptural, Matthew 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen, but then again Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely suggests maybe it is all that are called, after all.



I believe that the gospel call is to be extended to all mankind without exception, but God's inward call to repentance comes only to those He has given to the Son.

Quote:
Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Exactly the same, you limit yourself to the 'called', not recognizing that this refers back to the 'predestinated'. In fact if we go back further this relates to those that are 'foreknown', but it does not say anything about those that are do not respond. Again they could be 'called' and yet not respond without undermining in any way the statement that Paul is making. To avoid further dispute, please note the 'called' in Rom 8:28 is not the same 'called' as in Rom 8:30, rather it relates more to the predestined than the 'bidden/called'.



Those who are foreknown are predestined, those who are predestined are called, those who are called are justified, those who are justified are glorified. I agree that the external call, by man, is to be given to all men but the internal calling spoken of in Romans 8:30 is only to those who are foreknown.

Quote:
If these passages are talking to any controversial doctrine, they relate to predestination, rather than prevenient grace. My question to you is why are you so against prevenient grace?



Here if where we can get into trouble. I am not against Grace from God that comes prior to salvation, I am simply against the Arminian doctrine of Prevenient Grace. This doctrine says that God brings man into a neutral state so that man may accept or reject salvation. I find it unbiblical. Certainly Paul would describe the saving grace of his salvation experience as more Irresistible

Quote:
God called me from an early age, and reminded me of His call several times, before I was saved. I would not have sought Him. I am very, very grateful for prevenient grace, I neither deserved to be saved, nor to be called, but He was gracious enough to do both, because He loved me. Does that mean that He neither loves, nor calls those that do not become Christians, I think not.



Praise the Lord. I am glad to hear that you are a follower of Christ and that you have always been aware of His calling. Certainly the grace you received from God was prevenient in the sense that you received it before salvation, but I also would ask you if you think you could have ever reject your savior once you truly knew Him? I know I couldn't and I don't want to.

 2007/3/12 9:07Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

Jeff wrote;

Quote: "Who revealed the Father to Jeremiah?"

Jer 1:4
¶ Then the word (rbd) of the LORD (hwhy) came unto me, saying rma,

The Father as they (Jeremiah) knowing Him as a creating Father and The God of Israel. Not Jesus who had not been born of the Father through Mary, the Incarnate Christ.

LORD:
Strong's Hebrew Dictionary
3068. [email protected]
Search for H3068 in KJVSL
hwhy [email protected] yeh-ho-vaw'
from 1961; (the) self-Existent or Eternal; Jehovah, Jewish national name of God:--Jehovah, the Lord.

Strong's Hebrew Dictionary
3069. [email protected]
Search for H3069 in KJVSL
hwhy [email protected] yeh-ho-vee'
a variation of 3068 (used after 136, and pronounced by Jews as 430, in order to prevent the repetition of the same sound, since they elsewhere pronounce 3068 as 136):--God.


_________________
Phillip

 2007/3/12 13:31Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

Rom 16:25 ¶ Now to Him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,


_________________
Phillip

 2007/3/12 14:13Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4803


 Re:

Brother Phillip wrote:

Quote:
The Father as they (Jeremiah) knowing Him as a creating Father and The God of Israel. Not Jesus who had not been born of the Father through Mary, the Incarnate Christ.



Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.


Christ is also known as "The everlasting Father."

Mat 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and [he] to whomsoever the Son will reveal [him].

It is the work of the Son to reveal the Father.

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2007/3/12 20:57Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

Jesus and the Father were One until Jesus Christ was born of a woman, and He was birthed in Mary, that He might bring all things to the Father and that God will be all in all. Phl 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

If Jesus was the One that revealed to Jeremiah the Father, there was not understanding of any separation that Jesus would be born again in all who believe from the Cross to the Rapture.

God was then The Father of Jesus Christ as He is our Father also, and the Son subordinate to the Father because Jesus Chose to be, and able to become the Savior of the World.

1 Corinthians 15:27-28 For he hath put all things under His feet. But when He saith all things are put under Him, it is manifest that He is excepted, which did put all things under Him. And when all things shall be subdued unto Him, then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto Him that put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

The separation of the Father and the Birth of Jesus Christ as a man will be as it was before Jesus Christ was born of a woman. For He Jesus Christ will be subject to God the Father.

It was not the Christ of the Cross that revealed to Jeremiah that he was a prophet of God, because the Cross had not occurred. That is why the Father reveals the Son and the Son reveals the Father, they were One until Christ was born of a Woman and He deemed it not robbery to be equal with God, but said He was that they might believe He was the Son of God.

Jhn 5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.

Phl 2:6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

You must see the difference in salvation in the old testament by works and by works faith and the salvation of Grace through Faith of Jesus Christ in the New Testament, or the Cross of Jesus Christ meant nothing. Act 26:18 To open their eyes, [and] to turn [them] from darkness to light, and [from] the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Rom 3:30 Seeing [it is] one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.



In Christ: Phillip


_________________
Phillip

 2007/3/13 1:23Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4803


 Re:

Brother Phillip wrote:

Quote:
You must see the difference in salvation in the old testament by works and by works faith and the salvation of Grace through Faith of Jesus Christ in the New Testament,



Paul does not teach this, listen to Scripture...

Romans 11

2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel, saying, 3 “LORD, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life”? 4 But what does the divine response say to him? “I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” 5 Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

Salvation has never required man's works.

Again...
Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

In all generations grace brings salvation to the remnant..

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2007/3/13 2:17Profile
Provost
Member



Joined: 2006/12/28
Posts: 117


 Re:

Romans 10:21 But to Israel he says:

“ All day long I have stretched out My hands
To a disobedient and contrary people.”

Why would God reach out if He predestined the disobedience?

I believe the text in these Chapters is telling Israel that they can not say that they are the "elect" That God will allow whomever He pleases whether Jew or Gentile. So to use these verses as personal salvation I believe would be incorrect, because the text is referring to the calling of a people, not personal salvation.

 2007/3/13 11:02Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

I guess we need to determine how his outstretched hands' corresponds to the fact that God has hardened the majority of the Jews.

 2007/3/13 15:39Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4803


 Re:

Brother Jay wrote:

Quote:
I guess we need to determine how his outstretched hands' corresponds to the fact that God has hardened the majority of the Jews.



Proverbs 1:

20 Wisdom calls aloud outside;
She raises her voice in the open squares.
21 She cries out in the chief concourses,
At the openings of the gates in the city
She speaks her words:
22 “How long, you simple ones, will you love simplicity?
For scorners delight in their scorning,
And fools hate knowledge.
23 Turn at my rebuke;
Surely I will pour out my spirit on you;
I will make my words known to you.
24 Because I have called and you refused,
I have stretched out my hand and no one regarded,
25 Because you disdained all my counsel,
And would have none of my rebuke,
26 I also will laugh at your calamity;
I will mock when your terror comes,
27 When your terror comes like a storm,
And your destruction comes like a whirlwind,
When distress and anguish come upon you.
28 “Then they will call on me, but I will not answer;
They will seek me diligently, but they will not find me.
29 Because they hated knowledge
And did not choose the fear of the LORD,
30 They would have none of my counsel
And despised my every rebuke.
31 Therefore they shall eat the fruit of their own way,
And be filled to the full with their own fancies.

Do you see what the last verse says here about those who:

24 Because I have called and you refused,
I have stretched out my hand and no one regarded,
25 Because you disdained all my counsel,
And would have none of my rebuke,

There fate is summed up by verse 31:

31 Therefore they shall eat the fruit of their own way,
And be filled to the full with their own fancies.

Paul wrote about this precept in Romans 1:

Rom. 1:26 For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. 27 Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.

Rom. 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting; 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness; they are whisperers, 30 backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31 undiscerning, untrustworthy, unloving, unforgiving, unmerciful; 32 who, knowing the righteous judgment of God, that those who practice such things are deserving of death, not only do the same but also approve of those who practice them.

What does it mean to those who God "gives up."

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2007/3/14 1:27Profile





©2002-2020 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Affiliate Disclosure | Privacy Policy