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strawrifle
Member



Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 139
uk

 Re:

Ben quote "Answer me this: Is it God's will for man to sin?"


Did Peter deny Christ,or did he deny Christ because Christ said/saw he would??

If God knows all and saw/said Peter would deny him,surly Peter was programmed to deny him...How could Peter not do what God had seen/said he would do?
(same for Judas)

andy


_________________
andy

 2007/3/13 19:55Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re:

Brother Ben wrote:

Quote:
You might say that that is ridiculous, "it is impossible to focus too much on God's sovereignty". But I say to you, if your focus on God's sovereignty causes you to disregard man's part to play, then it is error.



God's sovereignty is often preached by those who scoff at the thought that God still speaks to man. Scripture is clearly the foundation on this point. Yet most are not willing to submit to what the Holy Spirit has said on this matter.

Proverbs 2:

1 My son, if you receive my words,
And treasure my commands within you,
2 So that you incline your ear to wisdom,
And apply your heart to understanding;
3 Yes, if you cry out for discernment,
And lift up your voice for understanding,
4 If you seek her as silver,
And search for her as for hidden treasures;
5 Then you will understand the fear of the LORD,
And find the knowledge of God.
6 For the LORD gives wisdom;
From His mouth come knowledge and understanding;
7 He stores up sound wisdom for the upright;
He is a shield to those who walk uprightly;
8 He guards the paths of justice,
And preserves the way of His saints.
9 Then you will understand righteousness and justice,
Equity and every good path.
10 When wisdom enters your heart,
And knowledge is pleasant to your soul,
11 Discretion will preserve you;
Understanding will keep you,
12 To deliver you from the way of evil,
From the man who speaks perverse things,
13 From those who leave the paths of uprightness
To walk in the ways of darkness;

Many will hold fast to the traditions of men because they fear men more than God.

We must hold to the whole counsel of God's word. As soon as one throws away sections of Scripture one is throwing away the promise that God speaks to those in Proverbs 2.

3 Yes, if you cry out for discernment,
And lift up your voice for understanding,
4 If you seek her as silver,
And search for her as for hidden treasures;
5 Then you will understand the fear of the LORD,
And find the knowledge of God.

The whole counsel of God, not the ideas of men.

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2007/3/14 1:18Profile
BenWilliams
Member



Joined: 2006/12/11
Posts: 351
El Paso, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
Ben quote "Answer me this: Is it God's will for man to sin?"

Did Peter deny Christ,or did he deny Christ because Christ said/saw he would??

If God knows all and saw/said Peter would deny him,surly Peter was programmed to deny him...How could Peter not do what God had seen/said he would do?
(same for Judas)

andy




Hey Andy, no, it is not God's will for man to sin. He hates sin, abhors sin, detests it, and always judges it.

Peter denied Christ. Jesus did not command him to, but He saw that he would. God foreseeing something does not mean He causes it to be so. To mistake foreknowledge with forordination, is a grave error that causes mass reinterpretation of the scriptures.

God has perfect knowledge, which means past, present, and future. He knows every word that will be uttered for all of eternity. This does not mean that He causes every one of those words to be uttered.

Jesus said of Judas that it would have been better for him if he had not been born. If Judas was perfectly under the control and power of God, two major questions arise.

Did God cause Judas to betray Christ?

Did God cause Adam to Sin?

We know the answer to these are no. Even a Calvinist will say no to those questions. God does not cause people to sin.


_________________
Benjamin Williams

 2007/3/14 11:45Profile
strawrifle
Member



Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 139
uk

 Re:

Hi this is where i have a problem with it all!!

We all agree if God forsaw it,it will happen..I really struggle with how anyone thinks man can not do what God as seen!! Were kind of hardwired to do what God as seen..Yes we may see it as free will but its only partial really,were just following out what God as seen,,unless we can change Gods mind?


I spoke to a friend about this,it created a thread..He argues that God doesn't see what we did at a different time from seeing what we've done..He said God is Iam so out side of time, and sees everything at once i.e in heaven its always now..
Its very simple Ben,if God had picked you as Judas you would of betrayed him,how could you not??

aj


_________________
andy

 2007/3/14 13:14Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1132
Missouri

 Re:

Strawrifle, I have written a document on Foreknowledge that I would like for you to read. It is long, but I would like to get your opinion on it.

The Foreknowledge of God

I doubt most people familiar with Christianity would ever make the following statement: ‘God doesn’t know I exist.’ I would guess that almost anyone who has ever read the Bible, heard a sermon, or had a friend who is a Christian knows that God is supernatural and is aware of all things and all people. The concept of an all-knowing deity is very well-known and almost universally accepted.

However in Matthew 7:22-23, Jesus says the following: “On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

Jesus says a very remarkable phrase: ‘I never knew you.’ What does He mean by this phrase? Is Jesus saying that He has no knowledge of this person’s existence?
An answer of ‘Yes’ states the belief that it is possible for someone to be born, live, and die without God ever being knowledgeable of those events and that person. This is proven false because Scripture affirms that God knows everyone—all who have ever lived, all who are now living, and all who will ever live. Acts 17:25-26 tells us that God Himself “gives to all mankind life and breath and everything. And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place.” Therefore, the answer must be ‘No.’ Scripture affirms that God has knowledge of every person’s existence.

So, why does Jesus make the statement, ‘I never knew you’ if He is not referring to the knowledge of a person’s existence? What other reason is available? For the answer to this we must go to Romans 8:28-30:
“For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.”

The word “Foreknew” is translated here from the Greek word Proginosko. This word derives its meaning from the words Pro and Ginosko. Pro meaning “before” and Ginosko meaning “to know”. Ginosko is the same word Jesus used in Matthew 7:23. To foreknow basically means “to have knowledge beforehand.”

Proginosko in Romans 8:29 refers to knowledge that God possessed before the world began. What was this knowledge? Romans 8:29-30 tell us that it is the knowledge of those individuals who would receive salvation. But Proginosko can also mean Foreordain. In the KJV 1 Peter 1:20 says, “Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,”

Before we continue with a deeper study of foreknowledge, I will give a short summary of Romans 8:29-30.
- Every person who is foreknown by God is also predestined.
- Every person who is predestined is also called.
- Every person who is called is also justified.
- Every person who is justified is also glorified.

How does Romans 8:29-30 correlate with Matthew 7:22-23? Specifically, Jesus’ statement, “I never knew you”? We must conclude the following:
- The person addressed was never known (As Jesus states).
- If the person was never known then he was never predestined.
- Since the person was never predestined, he was never called.
- Since the person was never called, he was never justified.
- Since the person was never justified, he was never glorified.

Who are these foreknown people? Jesus said in John 6:37, “All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.” God gave certain people to Jesus and these people come to Him. Jesus also says in John 17:6, “I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word.”

God foresees all things and all people, this is universally accepted among orthodox Christians. There is nothing that escapes His sight or knowledge. He is the eternal God who sees past, present and future in the present sense. He knows the end from the beginning. However, as we have seen, God has a special connection to only certain people. This connection is often spoken of as a relationship.

What is the basis of this relationship? Romans 8:29 tells us that those in this special connection/relationship are foreknown by God. God knew these people and choose to have a special connection/relationship with them before they were ever born and before the world even began. It is the foreknown who receive salvation and they are to God “a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. Once you were not a people, but now you are God's people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.” 1 Peter 2:9-10)

The million dollar question is: How does one become relationally foreknown since even though all are foreknown not all people are foreknown in this manner? This is the question that causes disagreement among Christians. One group says that God foresees whether or not a person will respond in faith to the gospel call and then relationally foreknows that person. Another group says that God foresees all people in their natural sinful state—due to the fall of Adam—and He chooses of His own will and mercy to relationally foreknow some and leave the rest in their natural sinful state. It is this view that maintains that the foreseen faith of a person is the result of God’s choice not the cause of God’s choice.

So which groups is correct and which group is incorrect? Let us look at both position in more detail. I will refer to the first position as ‘Relationally Foreknown because of foreseen Faith’ and the second position as ‘Relationally Foreknown because of God’s choice’.

1) Relationally Foreknown because of foreseen Faith
In this view God in His Omnipresence and Omniscience looked throughout time to see who will respond in Faith to the Gospel message. For example, before the world began, God saw that in 1999 John Doe would come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. God—seeing this Faith in John—relationally foreknew John and then predestined him to be adopted in Christ. God chose John to be relationally known because John first chose God. Then in 1999, God calls John to salvation, then justifies him and glorifies him.

But is this view biblical? This view of relational foreknowledge says that God chose us because we chose Him? But what does Scripture say?
Scripture makes it clear that our salvation is not based upon our works as Ephesians 2:8-9 says, “For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.” The clear meaning of Ephesians 2:8-9 is that man does nothing and can do nothing to earn salvation, but we receive this salvation through faith. God’s starts the process through His grace, we respond in faith and the end result is salvation that is a gift. Man’s faith is not a work but is a response to the grace of God. Salvation is applied only to those who respond in faith to Jesus. These verses are speaking to Christians who have received grace and who have responded in faith. These verses do not prove or deny that Christians are ‘Relationally Foreknown because of foreseen Faith’ but merely describes salvation.
Titus 3:4-5 says, “But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy,” These verses tell us that God saved us according to His own mercy. These verses appear to lend more credence to the ‘Relationally Foreknown because of God’s choice’ view.
Romans 3:20-25 says concerning Abraham, “No distrust made him waver concerning the promise of God, but he grew strong in his faith as he gave glory to God, fully convinced that God was able to do what he had promised. That is why his faith was "counted to him as righteousness." But the words "it was counted to him" were not written for his sake alone, but for ours also. It will be counted to us who believe in him who raised from the dead Jesus our Lord, who was delivered up for our trespasses and raised for our justification.” These verses tell us our faith is counted to us as righteousness. Abraham had faith that God was able to do as He had promised. These verses appear to lend more credence to the ‘Relationally Foreknown because of foreseen Faith’ view.

What does the ‘Relationally Foreknown because of foreseen Faith’ view say about the nature and character of God? God has left the decision of heaven (Faith) or hell (unbelief) in the hands of man. Since God “…desires all people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth”. (1 Timothy 2:4), yet not every single person does not become saved; God either does not have the power to save all men or the desire to save all men.
I know of no one who holds the ‘Relationally Foreknown because of foreseen Faith’ view that says God has the power to save every person but does not have the desire to save every person so we will continue past that to the next option. If God has the desire to save every person but does not have the power then it must be He has chosen to allow man’s free will to be the deciding factor. This however presents a problem. First, if God chose to allow man’s free will to be the deciding factor, then God must have had the ability to save all men but gave up that ability. God has limited Himself and chosen to create a law that He cannot violate. But if God truly desires every single person to be saved then why did He choose to limit His ability to save every person? This severely questions God’s desire to save every single person.

If a person believes that God has chosen to limit Himself and to let salvation be decided by man’s free will then they believe—even if they might not publicly say—that God does not have the power to save even though He has the desire to save.

2) Foreknowledge based upon God’s choice
In this view God in His Omnipotence chooses for Himself certain people out of the world to be His treasured people. God makes this choice before anyone is born and this choice is not based upon what anyone has done or ever will do whether good or bad. He makes this choice because He is God and He has the authority to do so. He is Just in His choice because He is God. What right does the clay have to judge the Potter? The Potter has power over the clay to do as He wishes. God foreknows these people and predestines, calls, justifies, and glorifies them.

Many verses in scripture support the view that it is God who chooses.
For example, in the Old Covenant God made a covenant with Abraham. Why did God chose Abraham out of the entire world to enter into a covenant with? God did not do this because of anything Abraham had done. Abraham did not earn this attention from God. God in His own mercy and will Made a covenant with Abraham.
Genesis 12:1-3, “The LORD had said to Abram, "Leave your country, your people and your father's household and go to the land I will show you. "I will make you into a great nation and I will bless you; I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you.”

The children of Abraham began to increase and God kept His covenant with Abraham. God made the children of Israel His special people not because they had earned the right, but because of His will.
Deuteronomy 7:6, “For you are a people holy to the LORD your God. The LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession, out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.”
Deuteronomy 14:2, “For you are a people holy to the LORD your God, and the LORD has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession, out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth.”

The Lord chose the nation of Israel to be His treasured possession. But then something happened, God in His mercy sent His son Jesus who was the offspring (Seed) of Abraham who was prophesied. Galatians 3:16 says, “Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, ‘And to offsprings,’ referring to many, but referring to one, ‘And to your offspring,’ who is Christ.” Jesus then choose men to be His Disciples. He said to them in John 15:16, “You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.”, After Jesus’ death, burial and resurrection He referred to Paul as a “chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the children of Israel” (Acts 9:15). God then chose people—not from just Israel—but from the entire world to be His chosen people. This is the New Covenant that God confirmed.
1 Peter 2:9-10 says that Christians “…are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. Once you were not a people, but now you are God's people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.”
Colossians 3:11-13, “Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free; but Christ is all, and in all. Put on then, as God's chosen ones, holy and beloved, compassion, kindness, humility, meekness, and patience, bearing with one another and, if one has a complaint against another, forgiving each other; as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive.”
1 Thessalonians 1:4-5, “For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, because our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction. You know what kind of men we proved to be among you for your sake.”
Ephesians 1:3-6, 11, “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved…In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,”.

Ephesians 1:11 is a good verse with which to end. It states that Christians have been predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will. It does not say that He works all things according to man’s will. Certainly man’s will plays a part in salvation, but it is not the reason God’s relationally foreknows people.

In conclusion, the foreknowledge of God must be based on scripture. Scripture says that God foreknows people based upon the counsel of His will. Salvation is nothing that can be earned or merited. It is something that God does in His grace and mercy. Man responds to the grace of God in Faith, but as the great Arminian preacher Adrian Rogers once said, “Faith is you saying what God has already said.” Thus our response of Faith is the confession of what God has already done in our lives.

 2007/3/14 14:07Profile
strawrifle
Member



Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 139
uk

 Re:

Jay
these are people ur talking about..it could be people i love who God decided to play a game of dibs with, and they got hell? what God is that?

secondly i think it stinks in the area of sin,it doesn't curb sin it encourages it..if a man who's not elected murders someone,he as no reason not to murder again, after all hes not elected his punishment stays the same..it basically says to a sinful world ur not saved ur never be saved so knock yourself out.

lastly if true Calvinist should be the most humble of Christians,but i find them to be the most elistist

aj


_________________
andy

 2007/3/14 19:38Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1132
Missouri

 Re:

Who knows who is elected or not? I have no idea so I treat everyone as if they can be saved...no matter who they are or what they have done.

I pray that I do not come across as elitist.

 2007/3/14 23:02Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re:

Brother Ben wrote:

Quote:
Peter denied Christ. Jesus did not command him to, but He saw that he would. God foreseeing something does not mean He causes it to be so. To mistake foreknowledge with forordination, is a grave error that causes mass reinterpretation of the scriptures.



Just to add to this, Jesus said that Satan has requested of God that he be allowed to sift Peter as wheat.

And then Jesus prayed for Peter's faith.

What dynamic is introduced here?

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2007/3/14 23:03Profile
BenWilliams
Member



Joined: 2006/12/11
Posts: 351
El Paso, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
Hi this is where i have a problem with it all!!

We all agree if God forsaw it,it will happen..I really struggle with how anyone thinks man can not do what God as seen!! Were kind of hardwired to do what God as seen..Yes we may see it as free will but its only partial really,were just following out what God as seen,,unless we can change Gods mind?


I spoke to a friend about this,it created a thread..He argues that God doesn't see what we did at a different time from seeing what we've done..He said God is Iam so out side of time, and sees everything at once i.e in heaven its always now..

Its very simple Ben,if God had picked you as Judas you would of betrayed him,how could you not??



This is where the mistake lies, you are placing the knowledge of God, the Will of God, and the deeds of man as one and the same thing.

If God has said that a certain person will do something, you can be assured they will do it. But not because God ordained it.

Perfect knowledge works like this.

Say you were going to go to the grocery store, and you were going to by 50 dollars worth of groceries. If I knew beforehand that you were going to do exactly that, does that mean that I made you do it? Did I somehow cause you to go buy the groceries?

You might say to me, ah but you are not God. And I will say to you, why is it any different with God? Why is God not capable of simply having knowledge of something? Why is it that simply because He knows something, it means He is responsible?

Is God responsible for sin? There are many prophecies given throughout the scriptures of people who would sin, was God directing their sin? Or did He simply have perfect knowledge of it?

[b]See, you believe that God chose Judas to betray Jesus. But I say to you, God saw Judas wicked heart, knew he would betray our Lord, and allowed it to be so.[/b]

There is a major difference between the two.


_________________
Benjamin Williams

 2007/3/15 13:16Profile
BenWilliams
Member



Joined: 2006/12/11
Posts: 351
El Paso, Texas

 Re:

rookie Wrote:

Quote:
Just to add to this, Jesus said that Satan has requested of God that he be allowed to sift Peter as wheat.

And then Jesus prayed for Peter's faith.

What dynamic is introduced here?



Good point Jeff, very good point.


_________________
Benjamin Williams

 2007/3/15 13:17Profile





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