| Poster | Thread | John173
Member
Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 289
Omaha
| | Re: | | It will always be my contention that this discussion is over two sides of the same coin. The two sides seem contadictory, creating a paradox in our mind we wish to be resolved. The problem is that we can only see one side of the coin at a time. As David Helfgott would say, "It's a mystery, it's a mystery."
I find this all amusing, mostly because this has been discussed with such character on both sides. When it becomes a fight, that's when my heart starts to grieve.
Blessings to all,
Doug
_________________
Doug Fussell
|
|  2007/3/12 16:25 | Profile | BenWilliams
Member
Joined: 2006/12/11
Posts: 351
El Paso, Texas
| | Re: | | Jay Wrote: Quote:
Ben,
I noticed this verse "I told you that you would die in your sins, for unless you believe that I am he you will die in your sins." and it still doesn't answer my objection.
You hold the position that every single person has had their sins forgiven and all that is required is belief.
However, Jesus says in John 8 that if you do not believe then you are still in your sins.
"Still in your sins" was the phrase. That tells us that the sins were never taken away to begin with. Those who do not believe have never had their sins forgiven...yet you believe they have. This is what I am confused about concerning your position.
Ok, I will attempt to establish an understandable answer to your objection.
--------------------------------------------------
Let me start with this, in salvation, there are multiple things that have to take place before a man can receive eternal life.
God has to atone for a man's sin, because man is incapable of producing an atonement for his own sin that is perfect.
God did that.
God has to offer forgiveness to man, because man cannot achieve it by himself.
God does that.
The condition for man's forgiveness is that he believe in Jesus Christ.
Man must do that.
God must grant to the man eternal life for his belief.
God does that.
--------------------------------------------------
Can a man be atoned for, and still held responsible for what he did.
I submit to you this parable:
[b][color=CC0000]Matthew 18:23-35
23Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, [u]which would take account of his servants.[/u]
24And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, [u]which owed him ten thousand talents.[/u]
25But forasmuch as he had not to pay, [u]his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.[/u]
26The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
27Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
28But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
29And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
30And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
31So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
32Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, [u]O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:[/u]
33Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
34[u]And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.[/u]
35So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.[/color][/b]
I believe that this parable does a better job than I do in explaining how it all works. God forgave the man the debt, but because the man was disobedient, and wicked, the Lord held him responsible for the debt.
_________________
Benjamin Williams
|
| | 2007/3/12 16:44 | Profile | JaySaved
Member
Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1132
Missouri
| | Re: | | Is Christ the advocate for every single person in the world?
1 John 2
1My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
These verses say Jesus is our advocate and our propitiation. Is he the advocate for every single person in the world?
In John 17 Jesus said
6"I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. 7Now they know that everything that you have given me is from you. 8For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me. 9I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours." |
| | 2007/3/12 16:49 | Profile | roaringlamb
Member
Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California
| | Re: | | I would like to ask those who are Arminian in their Theology a question. This is strictly to gauge where people are in their understanding of the Arminian background.
Does it not concern any of you that when Armininism in its first form of Pelagianism came forth, it was silenced by Augustine? When it came before the Council of Orange under the name of Semi-Pelagianism it was rendered unbiblical?
Or when it resurfaced under the ideas of Erasmus, it was put down by Luther(The Bondage of The Will), and when it came before the Council of Dordt under the name of Arminianism proper, after six months of debate and searching of the Scriptures, it was found "heretical".
It is important to understand where we have been, and the history of why we believe these things. I'm sure we all believe in the Trinity, but do you know that there were huge debates of the existance of the Trinity? These are not ideas that sprang up suddenly and came to be doctrine, but rather men and women have risked their lives to believe these things.
Now, I do not herald John Calvin or hold him anywhere near Jesus Christ nor would he seek such a thing. Calvinism was thus named long after he was gone from this world, and the Five points were a response to the Five Points of the Arminians(Remonstrants). I do not agree with all Calvin did or believed, but that does not mean I must shun everything he taught. I am of the seed of Abraham, but does that mean I approve and condone his lying about his wife?(No ;-))
Also may I reccomend the wonderful book "A Display Of Arminianism" by John Owen, it is very eye opening as it was written in 1644 when these doctrines were still fresh in everyones' minds
_________________
patrick heaviside
|
| | 2007/3/12 17:01 | Profile | John173
Member
Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 289
Omaha
| | Re: | | Quote:
Is Christ the advocate for every single person in the world?
Advocate? No. Propitiation? Yes
The first part of the verse is clearly written to his audience-believers, yet the sins of the whole world were placed upon the Lamb of God. God the Father did not pick and choose whose sin to place on His Son. For God so loved [i]the world[/i]...
Now how did I get drawn into this debate?
In Him,
Doug
_________________
Doug Fussell
|
| | 2007/3/12 17:03 | Profile | rookie
Member
Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN
| | Re: | | roaringlamb wrote:
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
If God has not power to rule the Earth, then why trust Him with your health, your finances? Either He is sovereign, or He is not, we cannot play games with words, and say, "well yes He is sovereign, but not whne it comes to salvation."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Job 34:
10 Therefore listen to me, you men of understanding:
Far be it from God to do wickedness,
And from the Almighty to commit iniquity.
11 For He repays man according to his work,
And makes man to find a reward according to his way.
12 Surely God will never do wickedly,
Nor will the Almighty pervert justice.
13 Who gave Him charge over the earth?
Or who appointed Him over the whole world?
14 If He should set His heart on it,
If He should gather to Himself His Spirit and His breath,
15 All flesh would perish together,
And man would return to dust.
16 If you have understanding, hear this;
Listen to the sound of my words:
17 Should one who hates justice govern?
Will you condemn Him who is most just?
18 Is it fitting to say to a king, You are worthless,
And to nobles, You are wicked?
19 Yet He is not partial to princes,
Nor does He regard the rich more than the poor;
For they are all the work of His hands.
20 In a moment they die, in the middle of the night;
The people are shaken and pass away;
The mighty are taken away without a hand.
21 For His eyes are on the ways of man,
And He sees all his steps.
22 There is no darkness nor shadow of death
Where the workers of iniquity may hide themselves.
23 For He need not further consider a man,
That he should go before God in judgment.
24 He breaks in pieces mighty men without inquiry,
And sets others in their place.
25 Therefore He knows their works;
He overthrows them in the night,
And they are crushed.
26 He strikes them as wicked men
In the open sight of others,
27 Because they turned back from Him,
And would not consider any of His ways,
God is the ruler no doubt. Yet what does Scripture say of man...
Again...11 For He repays man according to his work,
And makes man to find a reward according to his way.
and also...
24 He breaks in pieces mighty men without inquiry,
And sets others in their place.
25 Therefore He knows their works;
He overthrows them in the night,
And they are crushed.
26 He strikes them as wicked men
In the open sight of others,
27 Because they turned back from Him,
And would not consider any of His ways,
These men were chosen by God to rule yet what does Scripture say of most men?
"Because they turned back from Him, and would not consider any of His ways"
How does this precept work with God's rule?
In Christ
jeff
_________________
Jeff Marshalek
|
| | 2007/3/12 20:47 | Profile | JaySaved
Member
Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1132
Missouri
| | Re: | | Quote:
I believe that this parable does a better job than I do in explaining how it all works. God forgave the man the debt, but because the man was disobedient, and wicked, the Lord held him responsible for the debt.
Ben, Jesus told that parable to remind his followers that we must forgive people because God has forgiven us. We are to extend forgiveness for the minor offenses against us because we have been forgiven for the major offenses against God.
Matthew 18:35, "So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart."
To apply this parable to something that the Lord did not intend is very dangerous.
Ben, I am struggling with how you can believe that every single person's sins are already forgiven and not held against them. What do you say about these verses that tell us that a person's sins are forgiven at salvation?
Acts 2:38
"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."
Peter says that the remission of sin is after repentence.
Acts 10:43
"To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins."
Only the person who believes will receive the remission of sins.
Acts 26:17-18
"Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me."
These verses say that the Gentiles may receive forgiveness of sins if they have faith.
Ephesians 1:6-7
"To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;"
Those who have redemption through Jesus' blood have received forgiveness of sins. These two are linked and you cannot have one without the other.
|
| | 2007/3/13 9:40 | Profile | BenWilliams
Member
Joined: 2006/12/11
Posts: 351
El Paso, Texas
| | Re: | | Quote:
These verses say Jesus is our advocate and our propitiation. Is he the advocate for every single person in the world?
No, I don't believe He is. But that is a wrong implication of the verse. We are told that He is everyone's mediator. And John was writing that specific passage to believers, not unbelievers. For the believer, He is both advocate and propitiation. Again for the sinner, He is mediator and atonement.
_________________
Benjamin Williams
|
| | 2007/3/13 11:07 | Profile | BenWilliams
Member
Joined: 2006/12/11
Posts: 351
El Paso, Texas
| | Re: | | Quote:
Ben, Jesus told that parable to remind his followers that we must forgive people because God has forgiven us. We are to extend forgiveness for the minor offenses against us because we have been forgiven for the major offenses against God.
Alright Jay, I will give you this one, because its probably too debatable a point. However, may I point out the very first verse.
[b][color=CC0000]Matthew 18:23
23[u]Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king[/u], which would take account of his servants.[/color][/b]
It appears that Jesus was not just saying forgive one another and making up a nice story to demonstrate that. Obviously that was His main point, but there are several understandings of the kingdom of God that He points out throughout the parable that have deeper insight.
Might I also point out, that after the man was forgiven, he did wickedly, and so the judgment came back upon him. Somewhat interesting if you ask me. Not merely to be dismissed as simply a forgiveness passage. It holds more weight than that.
Quote:
Ben, I am struggling with how you can believe that every single person's sins are already forgiven and not held against them. What do you say about these verses that tell us that a person's sins are forgiven at salvation?
I am going to answer your question with a couple of questions.
--------------------------------------------------
When were your sins atoned for?
Was it at the foundation of the world?
Was it at the cross?
Was it at the time of repentance?
--------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------
When were your sins forgiven?
Was it at the foundation of the world?
Was it at the cross?
Was it at the time of repentance?
--------------------------------------------------
_________________
Benjamin Williams
|
| | 2007/3/13 11:33 | Profile | BenWilliams
Member
Joined: 2006/12/11
Posts: 351
El Paso, Texas
| | Re: | | Hey roaringlamb:
In response to your post, I want to point out that the Arminians were so focused on man, that they left God completely out of the picture. So much so that it got to the point that the Arminian churches were basically just social clubs.
Does this concern me?
Yes it does, I see all the time, men who place more importance upon themselves, and what they do, than on God and what God does.
But it also concerns me equally when I see men placing so much emphasis on God's part, that they lose sight of the fact that man has a part to play as well.
I believe that if a man holds proper his devotion to the Lord, he will never lose sight of the sovereignty of God. But I believe that both sides err on focusing too much on either man or God.
You might say that that is ridiculous, "it is impossible to focus too much on God's sovereignty". But I say to you, if your focus on God's sovereignty causes you to disregard man's part to play, then it is error.
_________________
Benjamin Williams
|
| | 2007/3/13 11:58 | Profile |
|
