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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : advice on a verse

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BenWilliams
Member



Joined: 2006/12/11
Posts: 351
El Paso, Texas

 Re:

Jay Wrote:

Quote:
Ben, was Jesus the son not ordained before the creation of the world to seek and to save that which was lost?



Absolutely He was. The scripture tells us that's why He came, and that He only does God's will.

[b][color=CC0000]John 17:12

12While I was with them, I kept them in your name, [u]which you have given me. I have guarded them, and [i]not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction,[/i][/u] that the Scripture might be fulfilled.[/color][/b]

[b]Hold on here, was Judas one of the ones given to Jesus? Jesus himself says that none were lost except for one. That means that Jesus lost Judas, how can that be? Oh wait I know, Jesus ordained that Judas would betray Him. Wait a minute! That's not right either. What are we to do with this whole passage? It does not fit what you say! Jesus can lose one of the ones given to Him??[/b]

First thing to note, is that Jesus is not teaching anyone anything about foreordination, predestination, or the like. He is praying for the believers that satan will not take them. Oh, but I thought you believed it wasn't possible for a true believer to ever fall away. If that were true, why is Jesus praying that?

Anyways, back on subject.

Quote:
You can look at this two ways: 1) The people Jesus are praying for are given to Jesus by God only after they came to faith. 2) God gave these people to Jesus before the world began.

Option 2 is clearly taught in these verses. Also, look at verse number 4. It says that Jesus accomplished the work God gave Him to do. Does this not mean that God foreordained Jesus to this task.



Or option 3, Those that were given to Him, were given because they believed. He foreknew them relationally, because He has infinite knowledge to do so. So the ones who would be saved out of their own free will, He foreknew them relationally. There is no talk of foreordination.

Now, may I point out, that since God is not limited by the time we function under, the scripture says Christ was crucified at the foundation of the earth. In the same way, God gave these to Him. wait, now were they given to Him before the earth began, or did it happen when Christ came into the earth?

[b]Same paradigm Jay. You tell me, when Christ was crucified, and I'll tell you when they were given to Christ.[/b]

Lastly, how are all of us saved, if everyone Jesus was given was already saved as you say? He said He finished His work on earth, does that mean He is done with humanity? I think not.


_________________
Benjamin Williams

 2007/3/29 15:50Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1132
Missouri

 Re:

Ben, I am thankful that you admit that Jesus was foreordained as 1 Peter 1:20 states.

Judas betrayed Christ and Judas is held responsible for this sin. However, the bible clearly prophesies that this would occur and God used it for His purpose. It was always within the plan of God. Judas was called to Jesus, but not in the way the others were. Judas never received the saving grace given to the others.

Ben, foreknowledge based upon foreseen faith is a contradiction to election. Election is defined in the Bible as God choosing someone not based on anything done either good or bad. Would we not agree that faith is a good thing that is done? So, for God to base his foreknowledge upon foreseen faith would be to base it upon something done in man that was good. This is a contradiction.

Ben, Jesus was crucified around 33 A.D. Everyone knows this.

 2007/3/29 16:26Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1132
Missouri

 Re:

Revelation 13:20 "And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

This is the same thing spoken of in 1 Peter 1:19-20, "But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,"

Jesus was not crucified before the world began, but was foreordained to be crucified before the world began. "He was manifest in these last times for you".

I hope you do not believe that Jesus was actually crucified before the world began...

Concerning Judas Jesus says in John 13:18, "I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me."

 2007/3/29 16:38Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re:

Brother Ben wrote:

Quote:
But just because it is not us that sins, that does not mean that we always do everything right. We still make mistakes, and God corrects them so that we become more like Him.



I see it in a different light...When we do not do things right it is because we rely on our flesh and carnal mind. Yet, we have the Spirit of Christ available at all times. So then our mistake is sin, because we choose the ways of the flesh.

Quote:
To say that we are chastised due to sin in our lives, is not the God I serve, my God paid for all my sins, past present, and future ones on the cross. To undermine the atonement, and its entire purpose, (making us righteous) is absolutely a contradiction of true doctrine.



What do we learn from the book of Job?

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2007/3/29 18:22Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re:

Brother Jay wrote:

Quote:
I find it hard to believe that one can walk equally with both.



Scripture tells a different story.

1Cr 3:1 ¶ And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, [even] as unto babes in Christ.

2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able [to bear it], neither yet now are ye able.

3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas [there is] among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

2 Corinthians 6:
11 O Corinthians! We have spoken openly to you, our heart is wide open. 12 You are not restricted by us, but you are restricted by your own affections. 13 Now in return for the same (I speak as to children), you also be open.
14 Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? 15 And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever? 16 And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you* are the temple of the living God. As God has said:


"I will dwell in them
And walk among them.
I will be their God,
And they shall be My people."*


17 Therefore

"Come out from among them
And be separate, says the Lord.
Do not touch what is unclean,
And I will receive you."*
18 "I will be a Father to you,
And you shall be My sons and daughters,
Says the Lord Almighty."*

In each of these cases Paul points to the fact that the Corinthians, althought they have been given all the Spiritual blessings that are in Christ, yet they walk as men after the flesh and are not able to understand the spiritual things. They still rely on their carnal mind.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2007/3/29 18:31Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re:

Brother Jay wrote:

Quote:
There was no war before I was saved, but now that I am a child of God I see this battle raging. Satan is trying to keep me off the battlefield and Christ is calling me forward



I agree...this is my experience also.

In Christ
jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2007/3/29 18:37Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re:

Brother Ben wrote:

Quote:
Yet my flesh, wars against my heart. So much so that it is easy to confuse the two, and to believe that your own will, is that of the flesh. Which it is not. Your own will, is surrendered to Jesus Christ, while the flesh's will to that of sin and death.



This is not Scriptural...your flesh wars against the Spirit that is in you. Scripture teaches that you have a choice to submit to the Spirit or to the flesh, righteousness or sin.

You are mixing up positional theology with relational theology.

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2007/3/29 18:42Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re:

Brother Ben wrote:

Quote:
For it cannot be subject to the law of God, therefore it had to be judged as Paul says. So the flesh was judged, and put to death, and now we remain alive serving God with a clear conscience.



Paul teaches that the carnal mind cannot fulfill the law of God. The flesh never changes in its corruption. What change for the individual who submits to God is that he or she now has the Holy Spirit to lead them. If we follow the Holy Spirit, the Spirit will lead us to put to death the deed of the body. If we choose to follow the carnal mind we are doomed to corruption. So then it is by faith, and faith comes by hearing God speak to us.


Job 36


But gives justice to the oppressed.
7 He does not withdraw His eyes from the righteous;
But they are on the throne with kings,
For He has seated them forever,
And they are exalted.
8 And if they are bound in fetters,
Held in the cords of affliction,
9 Then He tells them their work and their transgressions--
That they have acted defiantly.
10 He also opens their ear to instruction,
And commands that they turn from iniquity.
11 If they obey and serve Him,
They shall spend their days in prosperity,
And their years in pleasures.
12 But if they do not obey,
They shall perish by the sword,
And they shall die *without knowledge.

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2007/3/29 18:48Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1132
Missouri

 Re:

Jeff, Paul calls the Corinthian believers 'carnal' because of disputes in the church over leadership.

Paul has a different name for those who are living in sin. For example, in 1 Corinthians 5:11 Paul says, "But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat."

Paul doesn't call him a carnal Christian, he calls him a hypocrite who is a 'so-called' brother.

 2007/3/30 14:39Profile
UniqueWebRev
Member



Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re: Your discussions

Just wanted to thank all of you for taking time out to answer my question.

As I had not read all of the thread at that point, I could not know that you had changed the subject.

Sorry for the interruption, and again, thank you all.

Blessings,

Forrest


_________________
Forrest Anderson

 2007/3/31 0:18Profile





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