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rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re:

Brother Forrest wrote:

Quote:
Is this not what you are discussing? How can one be in constant, wilful sin in the flesh, and yet have Jesus in your heart?



I am trying to focus on the real life relationship that one will find as he or she walks with Jesus. Your statement above speaks to this precept that one finds as he is growing in the ways of the Lord...

Gal. 5:16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

As we grow to recognize the work of the Spirit in our lives we will also be constantly shown the corruption that exists in our flesh. We have been trained and led by our carnal minds. Yet when we come to God and submit to His ways...the Lord will begin to show us what seperates us from Him.

In terms of growing in the ways of the Lord, througout Scripture, both the OT and NT, we are exhorted to grow in understanding and wisdom.

All the ways that man stumbles are covered in the parable of the Sower and the seed. We find that only by growing in the knowledge of Scripture, illuminated by the Holy Spirit, do we begin to recognize His voice.

If we obey His voice, we find a treasure that causes us to hope for the things the world does not understand. If we obey His voice, we find that He will lead us by His Spirit to put to death the deeds of the flesh.

The substance of our relationship with Him will conform us into the image of His Son. As we grow in wisdom we find that the things we once loved are the things He hates. And we also find now that as He teaches us about His righteousness we begin to cherish Him more and more.

As we follow Him, He will with all wisdom and love demonstrate His faithfulness in teaching us how to love God with our whole hearts, mind, and strenght, and then to love one another as He loves us.

This requires that He destroys our reliance on "self" and seek to be nurtured by Him. Agape love is the absence of "self." We then learn to love as Jesus loves. We then learn to glorify Him because He has implanted His word in our hearts. It is the "word" that shows us the intent of our hearts daily. If we live day by day, one moment at a time, we will learn that He can cleanse us of all types of unrighteousness. We are called to:

Proverbs 4:

26 Ponder the path of your feet,
And let all your ways be established.

Do we "ponder the path of" our "feet." Do we allow ourselves to be trained by the word of God so that we can discern between what is evil and what is good.

Sorry for the rant

God Bless
jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2007/3/29 6:36Profile
UniqueWebRev
Member



Joined: 2007/2/9
Posts: 640
Southern California

 Re: Rant? What Rant?

Jeff,

When you answer my question, I prefer you do it in depth, and not in part. After all, I wanted to hear your thoughts on the matter.

It will be interesting to see what Ben and JaySaved have to say on the matter, since the three of you always have differing ways of viewing things.

Thank you for answering me.

Many Blessings,

Forrest


_________________
Forrest Anderson

 2007/3/29 7:20Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1132
Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Brothers Ben, Jeff, and Jay,
I have a question that suits your discussion particularly.
For much of my life I have walked equally with Lucifer on my left side and Jesus on my right.
I sinned greatly, but I was honest in giving my heart to the Lord.
During these years, Lucifer sought to tear me away from Jesus. Jesus, walked with me, teaching me bit by bit, as I sinned constantly, until I gave again to Jesus what was already His, and while I was in the midst of being chastised greatly for my life's sins, and taught to try to stay on the path.
I knew next to nothing at 15 of what God would require me to learn, how I would learn it, or how he would use it. At five weeks short of 52, I still cannot keep from sin, yet I know a great deal of what Jesus wants of me, and what He wanted me to learn, and what He will use it for.
Is this not what you are discussing? How can one be in constant, wilful sin in the flesh, and yet have Jesus in your heart?
Blessings,



Honestly, I struggle with the statement “I have walked equally with Lucifer on my left side and Jesus on my right.” If this is pre-regeneration then you were walking with Lucifer and Jesus was calling you to Himself. If this is post-regeneration then you are walking with Jesus and Lucifer is laying traps for you to stumble. I find it hard to believe that one can walk equally with both. But having said that, I see a dilemma in your words.
You say that you cannot keep from sin yet you know Jesus and what He has for you. It is almost as if you are saying that in your inner man you delight in the Law of God yet you see another work in your flesh. Brother this is what Paul spoke of in Romans 7:13-25

“Did that which is good, then, bring death to me? By no means! It was sin, producing death in me through what is good, in order that sin might be shown to be sin, and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure. For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.

So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.”

Brother, do those verses hit close to home? They sure do to me! I delight in God, but I also see this other side of me that actually desires sin. This is frightening and this war rages everyday. There was no war before I was saved, but now that I am a child of God I see this battle raging. Satan is trying to keep me off the battlefield and Christ is calling me forward. I know that I am responsible for my actions and I know the Biblical command to “Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry: For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:” (Colossians 3:5-6)

Let us both stand strong and cling close to the Savior for He is our only deliverance.


 2007/3/29 9:49Profile
BenWilliams
Member



Joined: 2006/12/11
Posts: 351
El Paso, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
Now Brother Ben I have a question...

Heb. 12:3 For consider Him who endured such hostility from sinners against Himself, lest you become weary and discouraged in your souls. 4 You have not yet resisted to bloodshed, striving against sin. 5 And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons:
“My son, do not despise the chastening of the LORD,
Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him;
6 For whom the LORD loves He chastens,
And scourges every son whom He receives.”

Heb. 12:7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. 9 Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness. 11 Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.

Why does the Father need to chasten His sons?



For the purpose of sanctification. He does not chastise us based off of our sin, that would be unjust because He already paid for it once, and put it to death at salvation.

But just because it is not us that sins, that does not mean that we always do everything right. We still make mistakes, and God corrects them so that we become more like Him.

To say that we are chastised due to sin in our lives, is not the God I serve, my God paid for all my sins, past present, and future ones on the cross. To undermine the atonement, and its entire purpose, (making us righteous) is absolutely a contradiction of true doctrine.
--------------------------------------------------

Now let me ask you a question, when John says;

[b][color=CC0000]I John 1:8 8If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.[/color][/b]

Is he saying this in context of someone who is saved, or unsaved?


_________________
Benjamin Williams

 2007/3/29 10:19Profile
BenWilliams
Member



Joined: 2006/12/11
Posts: 351
El Paso, Texas

 Re:

Quote:
I have a question that suits your discussion particularly.

For much of my life I have walked equally with Lucifer on my left side and Jesus on my right.

I sinned greatly, but I was honest in giving my heart to the Lord.

During these years, Lucifer sought to tear me away from Jesus. Jesus, walked with me, teaching me bit by bit, as I sinned constantly, until I gave again to Jesus what was already His, and while I was in the midst of being chastised greatly for my life's sins, and taught to try to stay on the path.

I knew next to nothing at 15 of what God would require me to learn, how I would learn it, or how he would use it. At five weeks short of 52, I still cannot keep from sin, yet I know a great deal of what Jesus wants of me, and what He wanted me to learn, and what He will use it for.

Is this not what you are discussing? How can one be in constant, wilful sin in the flesh, and yet have Jesus in your heart?



To some degree yes, really all of this is a side trail to what we were really discussing. I was attempting to make a point in our discussion, and now we are having a different discussion entirely. But nevertheless, in response to what you appear to be asking;

"Let those who name the name of Christ, depart from lawlessness."

[b][color=CC0000]I John 2:3-6

3And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

4He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

5But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

6He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.
[/color][/b]

Does this mean that the moment we are saved that we do everything perfectly? No, it doesn't. And I as much as any other Christian can tell you the ravages of sin in our flesh that we have faced.

I believe it is perfectly clear through Pauls teachings, that the flesh, and the deeds thereof, (sin) were put to death at calvary by our Lord. That is the only way that a man could walk with the Lord, and not be judged of God every moment he remains alive.

So, do I commit sin?

No, God forbid, my flesh does.

I serve Christ whole heartedly.

Yet my flesh, wars against my heart. So much so that it is easy to confuse the two, and to believe that your own will, is that of the flesh. Which it is not. Your own will, is surrendered to Jesus Christ, while the flesh's will to that of sin and death.

For it cannot be subject to the law of God, therefore it had to be judged as Paul says. So the flesh was judged, and put to death, and now we remain alive serving God with a clear conscience.

I could go into greater detail, but I would rather start a seperate post for the discussion, and remain on the topic which we were discussing prior to this side note.


_________________
Benjamin Williams

 2007/3/29 10:55Profile
BenWilliams
Member



Joined: 2006/12/11
Posts: 351
El Paso, Texas

 Re:

[b]Hey Jay, I'm still waiting on your response to my two posts.[/b]

I don't want to get to far off topic, we were right in the middle of an important part of the discussion, and something always distracts us and then we start over. Let's plow back into where we were.


_________________
Benjamin Williams

 2007/3/29 10:57Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1132
Missouri

 Re:

Ben wrote:

Quote:
A second point that I would like to bring up is that it does not say anywhere that I have found that God foreknew the elect relationally. It says He foreknew them, and if you look up the meaning of that word foreknew, it speaks only of knowledge beforehand. Not intimacy beforehand. Those are two totally different things.



Ben, I doubt most people familiar with Christianity would ever make the following statement: ‘God doesn’t know I exist.’ I would guess that almost anyone who has ever read the Bible, heard a sermon, or had a friend who is a Christian knows that God is supernatural and is aware of all things and all people. The concept of an all-knowing deity is very well-known and almost universally accepted.

However in Matthew 7:22-23, Jesus says the following: “On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

Jesus says a very remarkable phrase: ‘I never knew you.’ What does He mean by this phrase? Is Jesus saying that He has no knowledge of this person’s existence?
An answer of ‘Yes’ states the belief that it is possible for someone to be born, live, and die without God ever being knowledgeable of those events and that person. This is proven false because Scripture affirms that God knows everyone—all who have ever lived, all who are now living, and all who will ever live. Acts 17:25-26 tells us that God Himself “gives to all mankind life and breath and everything. And he made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place.” Therefore, the answer must be ‘No.’ Scripture affirms that God has knowledge of every person’s existence.

So, why does Jesus make the statement, ‘I never knew you’ if He is not referring to the knowledge of a person’s existence? What other reason is available? For the answer to this we must go to Romans 8:28-30:
“For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.”

The word “Foreknew” is translated here from the Greek word Proginosko. This word derives its meaning from the words Pro and Ginosko. Pro meaning “before” and Ginosko meaning “to know”. Ginosko is the same word Jesus used in Matthew 7:23. The foreknowledge spoken of in Romans 8 is a relational foreknowledge that is different and more intimate than the knowledge that someone simply exists. Jesus makes this clear in Matthew 7 that He relationally foreknows some people, but not others.

Proginosko in Romans 8:29 refers to knowledge that God possessed before the world began. What was this knowledge? Romans 8:29-30 tell us that it is the knowledge of those individuals who would receive salvation. But Proginosko can also mean Foreordain. In the KJV 1 Peter 1:20 says, “Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,”

 2007/3/29 11:28Profile
BenWilliams
Member



Joined: 2006/12/11
Posts: 351
El Paso, Texas

 Re:

Hey Jay, I am answering your post, but I am still waiting for you to address both my posts in context of their whole arguments.

After reading what you posted, I studied it out further than I have before, and I came to the conclusion that you are correct. God did foreknow us relationally. I don't know how it escaped me, as this makes perfect sense with a God who has perfect knowledge.

The only point I find contention with is that you said this,


Quote:
[u]But Proginosko can also mean Foreordain.[/u]

In the KJV 1 Peter 1:20 says, “Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,”



This is an incorrect statement. You are attempting to take an english translation found in the scripture, and pin it to a greek word.

We already have the definition of the word [b]proginosko[/b], and know what it means from it's root definitions. Taking this verse in I Peter and attempting to establish another meaning than what the definitions show us is completely wrong.

The correct process is to go the opposite way, and show that the verse in I Peter has an incorrectly translated word, as it does not fit the definition of the word [b]proginosko[/b].

This is very bad logic, and false interpretation. I don't know who is teaching this, but they need to go back to apologetics school, and learn all of the errors in translation that we have in our Bibles.

You know very well, just as I do, that the interpreters of the KJV as well as all the others have placed cultural and personal influence into the final work. If it didn't make sense the way it was written, they would use what did make sense to some degree. This was not the case every time, but in man cases it was.

Even though I now agree with you on the issue of a God who foreknew us relationally, it still does not teach that He foreordained us. He foreknew us relationally, no more or less. Foreordination is a step that is not found in the scriptures, because it contradicts free will.


_________________
Benjamin Williams

 2007/3/29 14:50Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1132
Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
You know very well, just as I do, that the interpreters of the KJV as well as all the others have placed cultural and personal influence into the final work. If it didn't make sense the way it was written, they would use what did make sense to some degree. This was not the case every time, but in man cases it was.



Better not let Krispy read this! :-)

 2007/3/29 14:54Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1132
Missouri

 Re:

Ben, was Jesus the son not ordained before the creation of the world to seek and to save that which was lost?

I know you don't like to read what these verses say but I must quote these verses in John 17:
"John 17
The High Priestly Prayer
1When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, "Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, 2since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. 3And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. 4I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do. 5And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.

6"I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. 7Now they know that everything that you have given me is from you. 8For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me. 9I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours. 10All mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them. 11And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one. 12While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled. 13But now I am coming to you, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have my joy fulfilled in themselves. 14I have given them your word, and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 15I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one. 16They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. 17Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth. 18As you sent me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. 19And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be sanctified in truth."

You can look at this two ways: 1) The people Jesus are praying for are given to Jesus by God only after they came to faith. 2) God gave these people to Jesus before the world began.

Option 2 is clearly taught in these verses. Also, look at verse number 4. It says that Jesus accomplished the work God gave Him to do. Does this not mean that God foreordained Jesus to this task.

 2007/3/29 15:15Profile





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