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JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1132
Missouri

 Re:

Jesus said to those Jews in John 8:
"Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do."

Jesus said to Peter in Luke 22
"Simon, Simon, behold, Satan demanded to have you, that he might sift you like wheat, but I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail."

Peter was a child of God and Satan wanted him but could not have him. The Jews in John 8 belonged to Satan for they were his children. Big difference.

When Jesus rebuked Peter, he saw Satan's influence and Peter repented. When Jesus rebuked those Jews, He said that they cannot hear Him.

Also, another question is why did Jesus say that those Jews in John 8 are not able to listen to His word? I thought all men had the ability to choose?

 2007/3/20 16:45Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1132
Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.



I am thankful rookie that you brought up this scripture. Do those who are of the Seed of Satan have the ability to choose Christ?

EDIT Follow up question: In the context of Romans 8:29-30, Does God relationally foreknow anyone who is of the Seed of Satan?

 2007/3/20 16:47Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re:

Brother Ben wrote:

Quote:
If you say that Jesus was speaking literally, then I would like you to go to the Jewish community, and trace those Jews ancestory back to Abraham so that it will be apparent that Abraham was their Father.



I believe Jesus is speaking literally in both situations.

First, Jesus acknowledges that the men standing before Him are truly the decendants of Abraham...

37 "I know that you are Abraham's descendants,

This is a fact because Jesus said it. But in Scripture we find that there exists a difference between the decendants according to the flesh and decendants according to the Spirit.

Galatians 4:

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are children of promise. 29 But, as he who was born according to the flesh then persecuted him who was born according to the Spirit, even so it is now. 30 Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? "Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman."* 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.

Likewise we have Jacob and Esau...Both are decendants of Abraham yet we know that Esau despised his inheritance...

Gen 25:34 Then Jacob gave Esau bread and pottage of lentiles; and he did eat and drink, and rose up, and went his way: thus Esau despised [his] birthright.

Getting back to John 8, Jesus makes this distinction between those who stand before Him and those who have as their father Abraham...

First...

33 They answered Him, "We are Abraham's descendants, and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can You say, 'You will be made free'?"
34 Jesus answered them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.


So Jesus points to the fact that whoever is a slave to sin does not abide in the house forever.

Then we have...

39 They answered and said to Him, "Abraham is our father."
Jesus said to them, "If you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham.

Do you see how Jesus seperates these two sets of children?

Lev 26:15 And if ye shall despise my statutes, or if your soul abhor my judgments, so that ye will not do all my commandments, [but] that ye break my covenant:

Num 15:31 Because he hath despised the word of the LORD, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity [shall be] upon him.

Pro 1:7 The fear of the LORD [is] the beginning of knowledge: [but] fools despise wisdom and instruction.

Pro 1:30 They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof.

Not only the men before Him, but in each generation we find that many despised the word of the Lord, many despised knowledge and instruction from the Lord.

Yet, there are those who are just and live by faith. And what is the source from which this faith comes...

Rom 10:17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Jesus points to this precept...in John 8.
Jhn 8:31 ¶ Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, [then] are ye my disciples indeed;


This is the point that seperates the seed of Satan and the Seed of the woman...

"If ye continue in my word, [then] are ye my disciples indeed...

And He is able to set one free from being a slave to sin if one continues in His word...

Did I answer your question?

In Christ
Jeff




_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2007/3/20 23:14Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re:

Brother Jay asked;

Quote:
I am thankful rookie that you brought up this scripture. Do those who are of the Seed of Satan have the ability to choose Christ?



Do you believe Adam and Eve had the ability to choose God?

Satan can not predestine anyone to be his seed. I believe Scripture points to the fact that all are given the choice to believe or not believe.

God works this in man twice, three times in order to bring his soul back from the Pit. Those who deny God are turned over by God to follow their own fancies,

Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in [their] knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Once God turns one over to their own carnal mind they are left to Satan's lies...

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2007/3/20 23:24Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re:

Brother Jay asked:

Quote:
EDIT Follow up question: In the context of Romans 8:29-30, Does God relationally foreknow anyone who is of the Seed of Satan?



Rom. 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.


Here is another testimony similar to the one above...

1 Does not wisdom cry out,
And understanding lift up her voice?
2 She takes her stand on the top of the high hill,
Beside the way, where the paths meet.
3 She cries out by the gates, at the entry of the city,
At the entrance of the doors:
4 “To you, O men, I call,
And my voice is to the sons of men.
5 O you simple ones, understand prudence,
And you fools, be of an understanding heart.
6 Listen, for I will speak of excellent things,
And from the opening of my lips will come right things;
7 For my mouth will speak truth;
Wickedness is an abomination to my lips.
8 All the words of my mouth are with righteousness;
Nothing crooked or perverse is in them.
9 They are all plain to him who understands,
And right to those who find knowledge.
10 Receive my instruction, and not silver,
And knowledge rather than choice gold;
11 For wisdom is better than rubies,
And all the things one may desire cannot be compared with her.
12 “I, wisdom, dwell with prudence,
And find out knowledge and discretion.
13 The fear of the LORD is to hate evil;
Pride and arrogance and the evil way
And the perverse mouth I hate.
14 Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom;
I am understanding, I have strength.
15 By me kings reign,
And rulers decree justice.
16 By me princes rule, and nobles,
All the judges of the earth.
17 I love those who love me,
And those who seek me diligently will find me.

I teach that this is the Holy Spirit that cries out. And in the last verse we hear...

"I love those who love me, and those who seek me diligently will find me."

Rom. 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God,

I believe Scripture teaches that God's Spirit is present everywhere crying out to all men...

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2007/3/21 2:22Profile
BenWilliams
Member



Joined: 2006/12/11
Posts: 351
El Paso, Texas

 Re:

Hey rookie, you did a very good job in your response, it's almost enough to convince me, however I would like to discuss it a little further as I think I may still see a few flaws with the whole design. I will simply start here with this scripture in response to your post. By the way, this is for Jay as well.

[b][color=CC0000]I John 3:4-14

4Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

5And ye know that [u]he was manifested to take away our sins;[/u] and in him is no sin.

6Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

7Little children, let no man deceive you: [u]he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.[/u]

8[u]He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.[/u]

9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

10[u]In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.[/u]

11For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.

12Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? [u]Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.[/u]

13Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.

14We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.[/color][/b]

Now, forgive me if I'm wrong, but after reading what John wrote, it would appear to me that he believed that anyone who did unrighteously was a child of the devil. (that makes Satan their father for clarifications sake.) Now, following a logical train of thought, if Satan is the father of anyone who does unrighteously, then the whole world has satan as their father.

John makes it clear that the way you no that you are a child of God is because you love the brethren, so the opposite statement is obvious. If you do not love the bretheren, then you are a child of the devil. It is his whole concept in writing the passage that there are two types of children, those of satan, and those of God.

Now, you can say to me, well if they become the child of God, then it was because they always were predestined to be such. But if that is the case, then the unrighteousness that they walked in must never have been seen by either man or God, that way they could not be called a child of the devil.

If you notice verse 8,

[b][color=CC0000]I John 3:8

8He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. [u]For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.[/u][/color][/b]

John makes it perfectly clear that Jesus came to destroy what the devil had created. This would include destroying the kingdom of the devil in the hearts of his children.

I think it is perfectly obvious that John believed that before anyone was a child of God, that they were a child of the devil.


In reference then to the other passage about the Jews, it is obvious that they had satan as their father, and that that is why they wouldn't listen to the truth. But Jesus was not saying that they could not be free. He said they wouldn't listen to Him because they had satan as their father. It was an open rebuke, centered at their heart to bring repentance. Whom the Lord loves, He chastises, or rebukes. His heart was for them, not against them. But they would not.


_________________
Benjamin Williams

 2007/3/21 10:21Profile
BenWilliams
Member



Joined: 2006/12/11
Posts: 351
El Paso, Texas

 Re:

Jay wrote:

Quote:
Jesus said to those Jews in John 8:"Why do you not understand My speech? Because you are not able to listen to My word. You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do."

Jesus said to Peter in Luke 22
"Simon, Simon, behold, Satan demanded to have you, that he might sift you like wheat, but I have prayed for you that your faith may not fail."

Peter was a child of God and Satan wanted him but could not have him. The Jews in John 8 belonged to Satan for they were his children. Big difference.

When Jesus rebuked Peter, he saw Satan's influence and Peter repented. When Jesus rebuked those Jews, He said that they cannot hear Him.

Also, another question is why did Jesus say that those Jews in John 8 are not able to listen to His word? I thought all men had the ability to choose?



I would like to point out that there is no record of Peter repenting, and not only that, but Peter later denies Jesus three times, with foul cursing. It would appear that Peter was obviously a child of the devil, as he did not truly love the bretheren. He was not willing to lay down his life for the bretheren as John said a true disciple would. His works were very unrighteouss. which is the very thing that John says defines a child of the devil. Also, he chops off a persons ear with a sword, not showing the love of God.


_________________
Benjamin Williams

 2007/3/21 10:38Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1132
Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
It would appear that Peter was obviously a child of the devil, as he did not truly love the bretheren



Peter was a child of the devil? :-o I strongly disagree. Judas was a child of the devil and his works proved it. Peter made mistakes but never fell away.

John 21
15When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord; you know that I love you." He said to him, "Feed my lambs." 16He said to him a second time, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord; you know that I love you." He said to him, "Tend my sheep." 17He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" Peter was grieved because he said to him the third time, "Do you love me?" and he said to him, "Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you." Jesus said to him, "Feed my sheep. 18Truly, truly, I say to you, when you were young, you used to dress yourself and walk wherever you wanted, but when you are old, you will stretch out your hands, and another will dress you and carry you where you do not want to go." 19(This he said to show by what kind of death he was to glorify God.) And after saying this he said to him, "Follow me."

When Peter said, "Lord you know all things, you know I love you." Did Jesus call him a liar and tell him he was a child of the devil?

Absolutely not!

 2007/3/21 10:56Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1132
Missouri

 Re:

I wrote:

Quote:
I am thankful rookie that you brought up this scripture. Do those who are of the Seed of Satan have the ability to choose Christ?



You replied
Quote:
Do you believe Adam and Eve had the ability to choose God?



Yes. Adam and Eve had both the ability to choose God before the Fall. Before the Fall, they had the unique ability to choose to sin and choose to not sin. Once the Fall occurred, they as well as us lose our ability to choose God apart from His grace that enables.

 2007/3/21 11:02Profile
BenWilliams
Member



Joined: 2006/12/11
Posts: 351
El Paso, Texas

 Re:

Jay Wrote:

Quote:
Peter was a child of the devil? I strongly disagree. Judas was a child of the devil and his works proved it. Peter made mistakes but never fell away.



You are missing my entire point here Jay, I am being competely fasicious to make a greater point. I do not believe for a second that Peter was really a child of the devil. But I believe that you are not doing justice to the inerpretation of scripture. You use one logic in one place, another logic in another place. And in the end, there is not a consistency in your interpretation.

In one passage where Jesus tells someone they are children of the devil, it is because they were always the devils. Yet in another passage where he calls someone satan, it is merely because he sees the influence of satan upon them. That is wrong logic. Proper logic stays with what we know to be true about the nature of Jesus.

What I attempted to point out in my post about I John, was that Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil. As everyone in the earth was walking in unrighteousness save a few, the whole world had satan as their father according to John. This point is indisputable. He makes it very plain that anyone who does not do righteously is the child of the devil.

That means that when he himself was not following Jesus, he himself was walking in unrighteousness, and as such was a child of the devil. In that state, he was not listening to God, was a child of wrath. And deserved hell. For he was unrighteous.

Jesus came to destroy the works of the devil. What are the works of the devil?
They are all unrighteousness. So Jesus came to destroy the unrighteousness that the devil had wrought upon the earth, and in the hearts of men.

These points must be addressed, as they are pivotal in understanding the truth. Arguments of the seed of satan and the like are mere nonsense when it comes down to a crucial understanding of the purpose of Christ coming to the earth.

Notice John does not say that Jesus came to destroy some of the works of the devil. It says He came to destroy the works of the devil. That means all unrighteousness. Jesus came to destroy all unrighteousness, and as such was His purpose, if there was any unrighteousness in a man's heart, it was His purpose to destroy it. Every man, every time, no exception.

This again must be addressed, it is not a disputable point. Either Christ came to destroy all unrighteousness, or He did not. It says He did, so you either have to believe that that is true, or deny the scriptures.

Now I have a question with so much depth on it, that if it is answered lightly, or frivolously, I fear the consequences. We will be held accountable for every idle word spoken, so please consider the great weight that this question carries before you answer it. No cliche' answer will subside.

[b][color=CC0000]Did Jesus accomplish the purpse that He came here to earth to accomplish? That purpose being what John said, to destroy all unrighteousness.[/color][/b]


_________________
Benjamin Williams

 2007/3/21 11:56Profile





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