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Discussion Forum : News and Current Events : "Killing on the battlefield is not a sin."

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rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re:

Sister wrote:

Quote:
It so happens that our history is written by the victors – and their beliefs come through their writings: namely: unbelief in God and belief in nationhood. Is that not a form of brain washing, a tool of the devil?



I saw the movie Amazing Grace this night. At the very end, Charles Fox said something like this to Parliment...

Nepolean Bonaparte comes home in truimph through the wrath of war. When he has received his reward, all he has is the wrath of war to dream of. William Wilberforce on the other hand comes home to his wife at night with the peace that comes from sacrificing his life for the abolition of slavery.

Wilberforce trusted in God...that is the difference. Peace is the fruit.

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2007/3/12 1:00Profile
MikeH
Member



Joined: 2006/9/21
Posts: 116


 Re:

I am not posting this in reply to any particular point, but just some thoughts to think about. This post will probably get me into serious trouble, but it is interesting to see why both Hamas in Palestine and Hezbollah in Southern Lebanon have gained so much support. Primarily, because they provide social and health services to the population that either is not available from the legitimate government or slow in being provided. I have often wonder what would have happened if the USA had spent the $500bn or so direct cost of the Iraqi war on something different than military hardware, soldiers and security personnel. I guess one can build a decent hospital for $100m, so if the USA had built 500 of them across the middle east over the last few years, I wonder where their reputation would be now? While there might be a lot of overt criticism, the people that count, ie the people that vote locally, would be grateful that their children, wifes, father, mothers etc could get some decent treatment. Sure some of the money would get wasted, but I guess every time a cruise missile is used that's $1m spent and something else destroyed. Now the hospitals could be equiped with American equipment so the money would have still flowed back to the American economy, though it would also have helped the local economy with the need for staff and servicing. Of course Haliburton and KBR could have been used for the construction projects, so Cheney's old colleaques would have been happy. Oh, and by the way, that has only used up $50bn, there would still be another $450bn left if one wanted to spend that.

The problems with the idea; well it wouldn't sit well at home if the Middle East had free healthcare and people at home don't, and besides it would just be a waste of money, wouldn't it? Bush probably wouldn't have got a second term, if he hadn't been impeached for insanity before the end of his first term. The verses shortly after the ones about turning the other cheek, are:

[color=009900]You have heard that it was said, 'Love your friends, hate your enemies.' But now I tell you: love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, (Matthew 5:43-44)[/color]"

By the way if you are tempted to correct me about Hamas and Hezbollah, remember the Lord also said, [color=009900]"And the lord commended the unjust steward, because he had done wisely: for the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light." (Luke 16:8)[/color]. But to set your mind at rest, I do not support either Hamas or Hezbollah, nor would I wish to encourage support for them (which would probably make me a criminal is some places), but they are very wise.

On a related topic, I have no great skills as a historian, but I have thought a bit about WWII. I wondered if the Allied had not fought Hitler, what the outcome would have been. The death toll from the war is about 50m Allies dead and 12m Axis dead a total of 62m. So the winners paid a greater cost in terms of human life than for the losers. Now Hitler would have probably overrun most of Europe including the UK and the European part of the USSR. I am not sure how far the Japanese would have gone, and they may not even have expanded their territorial adventure from what they already had, if didn't need to distract the Allied Powers. So what would have happened, some deaths from the invasions, but probably fairly few. However, the holocaust might have gotten worse, and while the Jews were the main target, the infirm, both mentally and physically, and other minorities were also targets of its activities. I think a typical estimate of deaths from the holocaust are 6m, and even if it got to double that the number of deaths would still be only 20% of of the deaths due to war. Even Stalin with all his purges etc is now only estimated to have killed between 10m and 20m during his reign. Mao Zedong seemed to have managed to kill between 20m and 30m of his citizens, but again half of the death toll of WWII. It is interesting to consider how long Hitler would have been allowed by the Lord to reign for, and whether the attrocities would have naturally come to end. The collapse of the Iron Curtain without bloodshed is a case in point. Both Stalin and Mao eventually died, and even they, together, had not equalled the number of dead in WWII.

A controversial view, I know, but some food for thought I hope.

Mike

 2007/3/12 6:26Profile
blinx
Member



Joined: 2006/10/10
Posts: 57
Oeiras, Portugal

 Re:

"Oh he was a good christian man. He liked to spend time with his family, reading the bible and killing iraqis."


_________________
João Tiago

 2007/3/12 9:26Profile
BudTexas
Member



Joined: 2007/3/10
Posts: 22
Fort Worth, TX

 Re:

The Lord had me go to Iraq as a convoy truck driver for KBR.

October, 2004 to April, 2006.





 2007/3/13 22:23Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re:

Brother Mike wrote:

Quote:
On a related topic, I have no great skills as a historian, but I have thought a bit about WWII. I wondered if the Allied had not fought Hitler, what the outcome would have been.



Up until the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor, men like Henry Ford and A.P. Sloan were busy drawing up business plans on how they would interact with a Hitler and his European empire. Many prominent U.S. Business leaders of that day actually supported Hitler's rise.

American banking institutions had established backdoor enterprises with Hitler's government. President Bush's grandfather also continued to promote business deals even after the U.S. government prohibited such dealings.

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2007/3/14 2:12Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re:

This is a quote from the book, Back To Jerusalem, writen by Paul Hattaway.

Brother Yun is quoted as saying...

"The past fifty years of suffering, persecution, and torture of the house churches in China were all part of God's training for us. He has used the government for his own purposes, molding and shaping his children as He sees fit. That is why I correct Western Christians who tell me; "I've been praying for years that the Communist government in China will collapse, so Christians can live in freedom." This is not what we pray! We never pray against our government or call down curses on it. Instead, we have learned that God is in control of both our lives and the government we live under. Isaiah prophesied about Jesus, " the government will be on his shoulders" (Isa. 9:6). Instead of focusing our prayers against any political system, we pray that regardless of what happens to us, we will be pleasing to God.

Don't pray for the persecution to stop! We shouldn't pray for a lighter load to carry, but a stronger back to endure! Then the world will that God is with us, empowering us to live in a way that reflects his love and power.

This is true freedom!"

The ways of Christ truly turn the wisdom of this world upside down.

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2007/3/14 2:21Profile
SteveHale
Member



Joined: 2007/2/15
Posts: 244
NSW Australia

 Re:

I think people are getting murder and kill mixed up.We are commanded not to MURDER not kill.
The scriptures that come to mind is Luke 3:14 ( Then some soldiers asked him," And what should we do?" He replied," Don't extort money and don't accuse people falsely-be content with your pay."
Notice John didn't tell the soldiers to lay down thier swords or find another job.
Also in Matthew 8,Jesus meets the Centurion. A lot of people forget that a Centurion is a leader in the Army.Yet Jesus said to those following him that he had not found anyone in Israel with such faith.


_________________
Steve

 2007/3/15 5:20Profile
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re:

KJV Luke 3:

14 And the soldiers likewise demanded of him, saying, And what shall we do? And he said unto them, Do violence to no man, neither accuse any falsely; and be content with your wages.

ASV Luke 3:

Luke 3:14 And soldiers also asked him, saying, And we, what must we do? And he said unto them, Extort from no man by violence, neither accuse any one wrongfully; and be content with your wages.

WEB Luke 3:

Luke 3:14 ¶ Soldiers also asked him, saying, “What about us? What must we do?” ¶ He said to them, “Extort from no one by violence, neither accuse anyone wrongfully. Be content with your wages.”

Drby Luke 3:

Luke 3:14 And persons engaged in military service also asked him saying, And we, what should we do? And he said to them, Oppress no one, nor accuse falsely, and be satisfied with your pay.

Yng Luke 3:

Luke 3:14 And questioning him also were those warring, saying, ‘And we, what shall we do?’ and he said unto them, ‘Do violence to no one, nor accuse falsely, and be content with your wages.’

In these verses John the Baptist commands that the soldiers do no violence, oppress no one, extort from no one by violence, do violence to no man...

What does it mean to do no violence?

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2007/3/15 6:27Profile
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re:

Quote:
The soldier's oath of absolute obedience was offensive to Christians who felt that such obedience was owed to God alone



It is a heart issue: “Give to Caesar what is Caesar’s, and to God what is God’s.” And that, I believe is where we draw the two-edged sword of the word: between “soul spirit, joints and marrow”…[ judging] the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.” In other words the word draws the dividing line in the heart – at the point of loyalty and trust.

From reading the books of EM Bounds, I get the impression that his loyalty is to the Lord. He gave himself for the Lord in his work through his military connection, as chaplain. He had set his heart and mind on things above, and wanted to see souls saved for the eternal kingdom, not merely his earthly kingdom. He went where there were precious people who needed the Lord, and who needed encouragement - to THEIR turf.

If I would say that God called me one day to a Freemason banquet to provide music for their program, some of you would object, and say, ‘God would never call you there. Why, Freemasonry is evil!” But, that is where the people are who need the Lord! And should that not be the reason any follower of Christ becomes involved in any institution in this world: because there are precious souls there who need to see the salt and light?

Here’s another thought:
The fact that any nation believes that it must resort to the strength of its own might is to me, a measurement of its spiritual temperature: it has turned aside the better offer of God.
It is not a case of uniform or not. After all, there is no virtue in pacifism, in itself. (As Krispy has pointed out.) That could very well merely be a copout – void of love for fellow humankind - a smug attitude. But that attitude cannot be attributed to all believers who, in a godly conscience, believe that God has called THEM into a different battle - perhaps one fought on their knees, or one fought on the home front – with faith and the sword of the Spirit.

We’re in big trouble when we can only recognize one battle going in our society.

Diane


_________________
Diane

 2007/3/15 8:09Profile
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re: Lest we forget: the real heros!

From the net:

Rees Howells dedicated his life to be an example to all, of what can be achieved by prayer and faith alone. He taught that it is safe to trust God's Word and His promises.

During the World War Two, Rees Howells led his Bible College in intercession to see the breaking of the dictators that would hinder the work of world evangelism. They laid down their lives in intercession, just like the young men who were on the front lines of battle. Rees Howells challenged them to be living martyrs.

They prayed through the situations in Dunkirk, the Battle of Britain, D-Day, and the involvement of Russia in the war and for many other situations including for the establishment of the State of Israel. The story is told in the worldwide best selling book, "Rees Howells Intercessor", by Norman Grubb, published by Lutterworth Press.

Diane


_________________
Diane

 2007/3/15 8:29Profile





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