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Discussion Forum : News and Current Events : "Killing on the battlefield is not a sin."

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rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re:

Brother Stever wrote:

Quote:
God's Word, in Romans, chaper 13 tells us God is in control of history and is behind setting up world governments. He also authorizes Governments (the Sovereign) to carry the sword and to punish those that do evil with the sword (the gun, the sword, the rocket launcher, etc.) WITH WRATH ---"a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil"



This does not mean that the governments obey God. It only means that they are subject to His judgements.

Job 34:
23 For He need not further consider a man,
That he should go before God in judgment.
24 He breaks in pieces mighty men without inquiry,
And sets others in their place.
25 Therefore He knows their works;
He overthrows them in the night,
And they are crushed.
26 He strikes them as wicked men
In the open sight of others,
27 Because they turned back from Him,
And would not consider any of His ways,

From the Scriptures we learn that God does select those who rule, but we also learn that most reject Him.

Proverbs 1:

10 My son, if sinners entice you,
Do not consent.
11 If they say, “Come with us,
Let us lie in wait to shed blood;
Let us lurk secretly for the innocent without cause;
12 Let us swallow them alive like Sheol,
And whole, like those who go down to the Pit;
13 We shall find all kinds of precious possessions,
We shall fill our houses with spoil;
14 Cast in your lot among us,
Let us all have one purse”—
15 My son, do not walk in the way with them,
Keep your foot from their path;
16 For their feet run to evil,
And they make haste to shed blood.
17 Surely, in vain the net is spread
In the sight of any bird;
18 But they lie in wait for their own blood,
They lurk secretly for their own lives.
19 So are the ways of everyone who is greedy for gain;
It takes away the life of its owners.

For those who obey God, we are not to cast our lots in with those who run to evil...



Deut. 9:4 “Do not think in your heart, after the LORD your God has cast them out before you, saying, ‘Because of my righteousness the LORD has brought me in to possess this land’; but it is because of the wickedness of these nations that the LORD is driving them out from before you. 5 It is not because of your righteousness or the uprightness of your heart that you go in to possess their land, but because of the wickedness of these nations that the LORD your God drives them out from before you, and that He may fulfill the word which the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. 6 Therefore understand that the LORD your God is not giving you this good land to possess because of your righteousness, for you are a stiff-necked people.

War is a result of wickedness. And all nations suffer because of that wickedness. None are righteous no not one...they all turn their backs to the Creator.

In Scripture we find that 78 % of the kings of Judah and Israel were judged wicked.

Are we to cast our lots among the wicked?

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2007/3/8 0:40Profile









 Re:

Quote:

philologos wrote:
Quote:
Would someone please answer the question that I asked?


The reason I have not provided an answer to the question is that I think it starts from a false premise. The question is not "Was it wrong for good people (many who were born again Christians) to use military might to defeat the Nazis?" but rather "Would it be wrong for ME to use military might to defeat the Nazis?"

No one can answer that question for ME, and I cannot ask it of another. Let each be persuaded in his own mind and give freedom of conscience to another's conscience too.

The other unanswered question is "Would Jesus have gone to war against the Nazis?"



In ancient Israel it was a capital crime, punishable by stoning, not to become a soldier when men reached the age of 22.

I wonder how long the moral relativism of today, that is taught in our schools and universities would have lasted in ancient Israel? Probably after 1 or 2 young men (conscientious objectors, you refused to serve their country) were stoned to death before the entire congregation.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

For an answer to this dilemma, the Word of God should be the only source. Christ said there would be wars, and rumors of wars until His second coming. At His second coming He comes with His Saints (us) to separate the sheep from the goats. The sheep enter in with Him to the thousand year reign on the earth. The lost (the Goats) are killed by the Word from His mouth ([color=CC0000]Christ KILLS them, Himself[/color]), and will go to hell, awaiting the Great White Throne Judgment.

Jesus Christ sounds nothing like a "conscientious objector" or a "Pacifist" to me. How can the "Lord of Armies" ever be mistaken for a pacifist or anyone like that?

God bless,

Stever 8-)

P.S. wikipedia provides this definition of "moral relativism":

Moral relativism
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article attempts to confine itself to discussion of relativism in morality and ethics. For other manifestations of relativism, see relativism.

In philosophy, moral relativism is the position that moral or ethical propositions do not reflect absolute and universal moral truths, but instead make claims relative to social, cultural, historical or personal circumstances. Moral relativists hold that no universal standard exists by which to assess an ethical proposition's truth. Relativistic positions often see moral values as applicable only within certain cultural boundaries or in the context of individual preferences. An extreme relativist position might suggest that judging the moral or ethical judgments or acts of another person or group has no meaning, though most relativists propound a more limited version of the theory.

Some moral relativists — for example, the existentialist Jean-Paul Sartre — hold that a personal and subjective moral core lies or ought to lie at the foundation of individuals' moral acts. In this view public morality reflects social convention, and only personal, subjective morality expresses true authenticity.

Moral relativism differs from moral pluralism — which acknowledges the co-existence of opposing ideas and practices, but accepts limits to differences, such as when vital human needs get violated. Moral relativism, in contrast, grants the possibility of moral judgments that do not accept such limits.
Portal:Philosophy
Philosophy Portal

In popular culture people often describe themselves as "morally relativist," meaning that they are accepting of other people's values and agree that there is no one "right" way of doing some things. However, this actually has little to do with the philosophical idea of relativism; relativism does not necessarily imply tolerance, just as moral absolutism does not imply intolerance. These people's moral outlook can be explained from both theoretical frameworks.[color=CC0000]Christ KILLS them, Himself[/color]

 2007/3/8 0:50
rookie
Member



Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re:

Brother Stever asked:

Quote:
I wonder how long the moral relativism of today, that is taught in our schools and universities would have lasted in ancient Israel?



If we hold that the United States shares with ancient Israel the same position with God, then I wonder how many Americans should be stoned because they worship another god?

Scripture however distinguishes between Israel and all other heathen nations.

Is war a blessing or a curse?

In Christ
Jeff


_________________
Jeff Marshalek

 2007/3/8 2:34Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
I believe He did... I believe God brought His wrath down on the Nazi's for the treatment of the Jews, while at the same time using that horrible situation to accomplish His will for the end times. Chiefly bringing the Jews back into the land.


Christ sits as a priest upon the throne of grace not as a Warrior.

BTW I have a son who is a major in the British Army! I did not encourage him in that choice but he knows he has always had my love and genuine support.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2007/3/8 4:15Profile









 Re: "Killing on the battlefield is not a sin"


Compton said (p4)

Quote:
This world has it's kingdom Gospel too. "Ceasars" face is on all it's coins, mile markers, monuments, battle banners and even religions. The world's Gospel is a thesis that permeates all the actions of men,

I was surprised some years ago, to learn that Christianity is the only religion in which there is no monetary payment [i]required[/i] for whatever salvation that religion offers to be able to be purchased. For me, that brought into sharp relief Peter's words

1 Peter 1:18, 19
knowing that you were not redeemed with corruptible things, [i]like[/i] silver or gold, from your aimless conduct [i]received[/i] by tradition from your fathers, but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot.


This is flanked before, by 15 - 17

but as He who called you [i]is[/i] holy, you also be holy in all conduct, because it is written, "Be holy, for I am holy."

And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one's work, conduct yourselves throughout the time of your stay [i]here[/i] in fear;

and 20 - 25

He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever, because

"All flesh [i]is[/i] as grass,
And all the glory of man as the flower of the grass.
The grass withers,
And its flower falls away,
But the word of the LORD endures forever."

Now this is the word which by the gospel was preached to you.


philologos said (p3)
Quote:
When Christianity degenerated into Christendom it quickly acquired a territorial aspect to its theology

It is always interesting here at SI, to see how discussion in SI's forums find the same answers making a profound impact on different manifestations of what appear to be the same issue. (This, about territory, arises in a comparason of the Old and New Covenants.)


Maybe we need to pick up on this aspect of SI (as much as possible), to see how the consistency of God's word [i]should[/i] be hitting our understanding repetitively with the same Truth.... and receive to ourselves as much of it as possible.

 2007/3/8 6:42
seanjol
Member



Joined: 2004/11/12
Posts: 55
Charleston, SC

 Re: I got a confession Ian

great post! One thing that I struggle with in the "war" issue is where do we say that we are under the new covenant. In the old, David was commanded to take up arms, Joshua to lay waste the inhabitants, etc. In the new covenant, we are told to love our enemies, lay down the sword, etc. Not on jot or tittle was done away as our Lord said, so where do we live?

All of this said questioning and searching, not even attempting to give the illusion of instructing.

Blessings,

Sean


_________________
Sean

 2007/3/8 8:12Profile









 Ron Bailey

May God always bless and protect your son.

I know you are proud of him, and I join you in praying for him, this man, this leader, and I know you still see him in your hearts eye when he was a wee lad. May God bless you all.

In Jesus' love, neil

ps....by the by, I am an anglophile, I love the UK, I feel very very comfortable being in that land. Just so you know. xo.

 2007/3/8 9:13
roadsign
Member



Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777


 Re: Who is our enemy?


In a recent conversation with my mom (who lived during brutal Nazi occupation in Holland) she pointed out that most of those Germans didn’t even know what was going on. They didn’t understand. In fact most of them had no clue about the mass graves being created at Auschwitz, etc. They were simply being loyal to their civil authorities. They thought they were doing what was right - just as they were raised to believe: absolute obedience to authority. That’s one reason why they made good fodder for the Nazi war machine. After all, you can’t have a reliable army without absolute loyalty. You can’t have people questioning the tactics, or deserting willy-nilly. You can’t have people think too much.

Didn't Constantine demand loyalty to HIS kingdom? And being that it was a “Christian” kingdom then it was a virtue to defend it. Isn’t loyalty what all nations expects of their soldiers? Many would view that as a biblical virtue based on:

Quote:
Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers.



At what point can we view those loyal to their nations as also in need of extermination: Is it not when OUR kingdom is threatened. Yet those enemies are simply deceived and brainwashed. If they were raised in our culture and our values, they would be loyal to our society. And they would be our allies.

At what point does someone become an enemy? At what point do our neighbors become our enemy? Surely most of those in our society are loyal to deception, and are indeed our enemies. They are brainwashing our children and drawing them away from God. Why don’t we kill them - even if they are our relatives? After all, eventually their false philosophies WILL destroy our nations.


We are not being consistent.

Why do so many, even Christians, see such little value in the spiritual armor of God – viewing it, essentially as impotent – just a form of pacifism. Is it because of unbelief? Our God is too small? We want to take matters into our own hands? Maybe we don't understand the power of the invisible enemy - who tempts mankind to self-destruct.

It so happens that our history is written by the victors – and their beliefs come through their writings: namely: unbelief in God and belief in nationhood. Is that not a form of brain washing, a tool of the devil?

I have a question regarding WW2: Why were the enemies not thwarted long before war broke out? After all, the danger was evident, was it not? Was the need for the war not a reflection of man’s failure (including the Allies) to apply the Biblical teachings long before the problem got out of hand – when it was too late. Should we not admit our FAILURE rather than emphasize our VICTORY?

No one has addressed my questin yet: “What is the armor of God, and how does it protect us? If it worked for David, why not for us? Perhaps, in using scripture to justify killing, many do not see that whenever ancient Isreal did NOT obey God, they did NOT have victory. It wasn't about their weapons but about their hearts.

Why did Jesus say, ‘Those who live by the sword will perish by the sword?

Do we God's children not have something far better to offer our world – which should be occupying our entire lives - which can save a lot more people than the sword - for eternity?



Diane


_________________
Diane

 2007/3/8 9:13Profile









 Ruach34

(btw, I love your moniker, good choice.)

war is hell, and may God protect and shield you.

neil

 2007/3/8 9:16
Tears_of_joy
Member



Joined: 2003/10/30
Posts: 1554


 Re:

Quote:
Why do so many, even Christians, see such little value in the spiritual armor of God – viewing it, essentially as impotent – just a form of pacifism.
[b]Is it because of unbelief?[/b]
Our God is too small?
We want to take matters into our own hands?
Maybe we don't understand the power of the invisible enemy - who tempts mankind to self-destruct.

It so happens that our history is written by the victors – and their beliefs come through their writings: namely: [b]unbelief[/b] in God and belief in nationhood.
Is that not a form of brain washing, a tool of the devil?



Quote:
Perhaps, in using scripture to justify killing, many do not see that whenever ancient Isreal did NOT obey God, they did NOT have victory. [b]It wasn't about their weapons but about their hearts.[/b]



This can be proven by the Scriptures:

Quote:
2Ch 14:2 [b]And Asa did that which was good and right in the eyes of the LORD his God: [/b]
2Ch 14:3 For he took away the altars of the strange gods, and the high places, and brake down the images, and cut down the groves:
2Ch 14:4 [b]And commanded Judah to seek the LORD God[/b] of their fathers, and to do the law and the commandment.
2Ch 14:5 Also he took away out of all the cities of Judah the high places and the images: [b]and the kingdom was quiet before him. [/b]
2Ch 14:6 And he built fenced cities in Judah: for the land had rest, [b]and he had no war in those years; because the LORD had given him rest.[/b]
2Ch 14:7 Therefore he said unto Judah, Let us build these cities, and make about them walls, and towers, gates, and bars, while the land is yet before us; [b]because we have sought the LORD our God, we have sought him, and he hath given us rest on every side.[/b] So they built and prospered.



Thank you sister Diane for your thoughts.

 2007/3/8 9:25Profile





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