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Discussion Forum : Revivals And Church History : The Jewish Roots of the Christian Faith

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rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re:

Heb 1:4 -
Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

Jesus has a better name than the angels.

Heb 7:7 -
And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better.

Abraham was blessed by God.

Heb 7:19 -
For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

We all know that the law condemned. Only through faith can we come near to God.

Heb 7:22 -
By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Heb 8:6 -
But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises."

2 Timothy 1:9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, "

Who can partake of His promise in Christ?

Heb 11:16 -
But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city."

Who had this desire?

Heb 11:35 -
Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection:


What women received this better ressurection?

eb 11:40 -
God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.


When will we be made perfect with them?

Heb 12:24 -
And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Only those who entered into His rest received the promise.

Heb 9:23 -
It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

Rom. 3:21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

Paul writes that the Law and the Prophets witnessed the righteousness that is of God, and that all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.

"[b]But the just shall live by his faith."[/b] Habakkuk 2:4

These people were justified by whom?

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2004/12/13 17:17Profile
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
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 Re:

Hi Robert
Paul's references to his conscience are challenging. It was one of the aspects in my mind when we talked about conscience in another thread. He professes that his conscience was always pure, apparently even when his actions were causing havoc to whole families.

[b]And Saul was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was a great persecution against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered abroad throughout the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles. And devout men carried Stephen to his burial, and made great lamentation over him. As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison. (Act 8:1-3 KJV)[/b]

[b]And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord, went unto the high priest, And desired of him letters to Damascus to the synagogues, that if he found any of this way, whether they were men or women, he might bring them bound unto Jerusalem. And as he journeyed, he came near Damascus: and suddenly there shined round about him a light from heaven: (Act 9:1-3 KJV)[/b]

Act 23:1, Act 24:16; Rom 9:1; 2Co 1:12; 1Ti 1:5, 1Ti 1:19;


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Ron Bailey

 2004/12/13 17:25Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re:

Br. Ron,

Br. Robert asked for your assistance in translating the verse in question. If you have the time, please give us a sense of what Paul speaks to. I have added the following Scriptures so that one can view the statement of Paul in context with what he is writing to Timothy about.

2 Timothy1:4 greatly desiring to see you, being mindful of your tears, that I may be filled with joy, 5 when I call to remembrance the genuine faith that is in you, which dwelt first in your grandmother Lois and your mother Eunice, and I am persuaded is in you also.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2004/12/16 10:45Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri

 Re:

Hi Bro. Jeff,

Quote:
These people were justified by whom?



I'm not quite sure what you are driving at brother. I do believe that the Old Testament Saints were saved by faith. They looked forward to the Cross we look back. Sorry for such a cliche' type answer but thats how I see it. They looked forward to the promised Seed and that Seed was Christ. They died and found their abode in 'Abraham's Bosom' as heirs with him of the same promises. these all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off and embraced them, etc. Faith was the substance of what they hoped for. The just have always lived by faith.

God Bless,

-Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2004/12/16 11:04Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re:

Br. Robert,

If you have time, listen to a sermon on what it meant to Abraham being justified.

http://www.sermonaudio.com/download.asp?ID=11160412017

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2004/12/16 12:34Profile
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
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 Re:

Quote:
Br. Robert asked for your assistance in translating the verse in question. If you have the time, please give us a sense of what Paul speaks to. I have added the following Scriptures so that one can view the statement of Paul in context with what he is writing to Timothy about.


This was a reference to 2 Tim 1:3 and I’m not sure what I am supposed to be finding that isn’t plainly in the translations that Robert quoted. Robert referred to the preposition apo. The preposition means ‘away from’ and can be used in the sense of point of departure. I would think Paul is simply saying that his serving God with a pure conscience has been from ‘his beginning’. In that way he is simply saying that his service of God began in the manner of his forefathers. I presume that means in the keeping of the law. In that law keeping his conscience was pure.

Why would he say that at this point in the letter? I think probably because he is about to trace Timothy’s spiritual inheritance through his grandmother and mother. As he thinks about God’s faithfulness in Timothy’s family perhaps it reminds him of God’s faithfulness in Paul’s family. The NASB has opted for a paraphrase here (it’s surprising how often the NASB does this when it is supposed to be a literal equivalence translation) [b]I thank God, whom I serve with a clear conscience the way my forefathers did, as I constantly remember you in my prayers night and day, (2Ti 1:3 NASB)[/b] The result is the same as my reasoning that Paul is thinking of the manner of service of his forefathers, and sees his own faith as a continuation of that.

Paul refers in the next verses to unfeigned faith (faith without pretence) which dwelt in Timothy’s grandmother and mother. There is the same thought flow here. Paul did not see the New Covenant as an innovation but as the prophesied fulfilment and completion of the Old.

I think the point about conscience is that Paul’s keeping of the Old Covenant was never from a wrong motive. Even his ‘voting for the death’ of the Christians was not from a wrong motive. This is the trouble with the conscience, it can be both pure and wrong at the same time.

Gill has a different slant:
[i]whom I serve from my forefathers with pure conscience; the apostle served God in the precepts of the law, as in the hands of Christ, and as written upon his heart by the Spirit of God, in which he delighted after the inward man, and which he served with his regenerated mind; and also in the preaching of the Gospel of Christ, in which he was very diligent and laborious, faithful and successful: and this God, whom he served, was the God of his "forefathers", of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and of Benjamin, of whose tribe he was, and also of his more immediate ancestors. The Ethiopic version renders it, "from my original"; for though he preached the Gospel of Christ, and asserted the abrogation of the ceremonial law, yet he worshipped the one, true, and living God, the God of Israel, and was not an apostate from the true religion, as his enemies would insinuate: and this service of his was performed with a "pure conscience": every man has a conscience, but the conscience of every natural man is defiled with sin; and that is only a pure one, which is sprinkled and purged with the blood of Christ; and whereby a person is only fitted to serve the living God, without the incumbrance of dead works, and slavish fear, and with faith and cheerfulness; and such a conscience the apostle had, and with such an one he served God. For this refers not to his serving of God, and to his conscience, while a Pharisee and a persecutor; for however moral was his conduct and conversation then, and with what sincerity and uprightness soever he behaved, his conscience was not a pure one. He goes on to observe what he thanked God for,[/i] I think he means that Paul saw his post-conversion service of God as a continuation of the faithful service of his ancestors. This view would not accept that Paul's conscience was pure before his regeneration.


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Ron Bailey

 2004/12/16 14:25Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri

 Re:

Hi Bro. Ron,

Quote:
. This is the trouble with the conscience, it can be both pure and wrong at the same time.



Yes. I was looking to see if the verse suggested Paul had a pure conscience before conversion. I know he said that concerning the righteousness of the law he was blameless (Philippians 3:4-6). In another place he said he did things ignorantly in unbelief and therefor obtained mercy.

My 'truncated' view of the conscience is simply this- it is the mechanism by which right and wrong is judged based upon what is believed to be truth. If you have a 'weak' conscience you have not come to faith in certain truths and therefor your conscience will use the criteria of what you believe to be true as the canon by which it judges. Some 'act' may not be sin, but if you think it is- and your conscience is violated in your participation in the act, it is sin to you. Now, I understand that ignorance does not mean exemption from punishment. I kow there is problems with this view; but I am working to come to a better understanding of EXACTLY what the 'conscience' is and in what way we are accountable for how we respond to it.

God Bless,

-Robert


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Robert Wurtz II

 2004/12/16 14:56Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re:

Thankyou Br. Ron for your input. You mentioned how Paul responded to Timothy's faith as being unfeigned. That reminds me of another Scripture where Paul writes to another church and declares that Timothy has a faith that no one else lives by. Paul declared that Timothy's faith and Paul's faith in a sense was one in Christ. All other's served for their own-self to one degree or another.

Br. Robert wrote:

Quote:
My 'truncated' view of the conscience is simply this- it is the mechanism by which right and wrong is judged based upon what is believed to be truth. If you have a 'weak' conscience you have not come to faith in certain truths and therefor your conscience will use the criteria of what you believe to be true as the canon by which it judges. Some 'act' may not be sin, but if you think it is- and your conscience is violated in your participation in the act, it is sin to you. Now, I understand that ignorance does not mean exemption from punishment. I kow there is problems with this view; but I am working to come to a better understanding of EXACTLY what the 'conscience' is and in what way we are accountable for how we respond to it.



Thankyou for your thoughts. It seems to me as I have mentioned of Timothy's faith, we are all within a continum of going from a corrupt conscience, (because of lack of understanding the truth) to something of a more pure conscience as we follow Christ in faith.

God Bless
In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2004/12/16 15:35Profile
rookie
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Joined: 2003/6/3
Posts: 4821
Savannah TN

 Re:

Br. Robert,

I don't know if you had time to listen to the sermon on Abraham and his justification. But this is the point I am myself trying to come to an understanding.

Abraham was justified because he believed God. The sermon describes two aspects that make justification whole as a doctrine. First, because Abraham believed God, God declared him righteous. Secondly, one's faith justifies what he believes. In Chapter 11 of Hebrews we are given witness of a multitude of OT saints whom were of the seed of Abraham. All of these saints had one thing in common, a faith that justified their beliefs.

Now Paul tells us how faith is created: Romans 10:

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “LORD, who has believed our report?” 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

So faith that justifies finds its' root in the word of God that one hears. Now we have the Holy Scriptures as a foundation of revelation from God. What did Abraham have? Abraham did not have the Scriptures. God spoke to him and gave His oath to him. Then Abraham witnessed the faithfulness of God to uphold His promises. This is the seed from which faith sprouts.

The example of Abraham is given to us as an illustration of a life that experiences the fruits of justification. It is the learning of God's righteousness that enables us to do good works. It is the learning of God's righteousness that enables us to experience the joy of fellowship.

As Br. Ron pointed out in another thread, Jesus is the revelation of God to man. (I hope I did not misquote Ron, I don't want to risk losing this post) It is the Word who taught Isaiah the gospel. It is the Word that showed Abraham the glories of His day.

How does this apply to this Jewish Roots thread? If one begins to search for understanding of the depths of what the oath meant to Abraham, one will begin to see for himself or herself the treasures of revelation in the OT Scripture. One will see the gospel that Isaiah preached. One will begin to know that faith springs forth by hearing God as He builds our understanding of His truth. It is this Truth that cleanses our conscience from the pollution of this world.

In Christ
Jeff


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Jeff Marshalek

 2004/12/17 11:26Profile
RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri

 Re:

Hi Bro. Jeff,

Quote:
One will see the gospel that Isaiah preached. One will begin to know that faith springs forth by hearing God as He builds our understanding of His truth. It is this Truth that cleanses our conscience from the pollution of this world.



And the blood of Christ cleanses the transgressed conscience from guilt. Again, I think that it is important to allow the Holy Spirit to do the work as we seek God in prayer and study the word. It would be easy to mess up our own conscience with a bunch of non-sensical beliefs.

God Bless,

-Robert


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2004/12/17 11:51Profile





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