SermonIndex Audio Sermons
SermonIndex - Promoting Revival to this Generation
Give To SermonIndex
Discussion Forum : Revivals And Church History : The Jewish Roots of the Christian Faith

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20 | 21 | 22 | 23 | 24 | 25 | 26 | 27 Next Page )
PosterThread
RabbiEukel
Member



Joined: 2004/11/18
Posts: 54
Southwest Missouri

 Jewish Roots: Rich, redemptive & Not Replaced

Shalom ... Avraham was "called out" separated from the land of his father to go to a place GOD would show him. Yitz'chak was "called out" to not choose a wife/bride from the nations surrounding him, but from the relatives of the homeland of his father. Ya'akov was "called out" to receive the birthright of the first born because Esav, his brother despised it. Moshe was "called out" to lead his people Israel out of the enslavement of Egypt's sins and to The Promised Land GOD had spoken to Avraham, Yitz'chak and Ya'akov. The children of Israel are "called out" to be a light to the nations (goyim) to show Or HaOlam (The Light of the world). Love and Prayers, Rabbi Eukel


_________________
Rabbi DF Eukel

 2004/11/27 21:53Profile
RabbiEukel
Member



Joined: 2004/11/18
Posts: 54
Southwest Missouri

 Jewish Roots: Rich, Redemptive, Not Replaced & RUACH HaKODESH

Shalom ... The Messianic Jewish community in America is represented by two large organizations: MJAA and UMJC. MJAA members do have more representation of those who have a charismatic/pentecostal background or experience. MJAA adherents, like many charismatic/pentecostals, tend to be people moved by The Spirit with less theological training. MJAA publications are widely popular but not, generally speaking, scholarly. The UMJC Messianic Jewish community attracts professors and writers who strongly feel the need to give a reasoned argument for their faith and links to the sages of our people. Like many other movements, denominations and religious organizations not everyone who refers to himself/herself as a "Messianic Jew" is in harmony with the Statements of Faith of the MJAA/UMJC. Even those who may align themselves as a part of a Messianic Jewish congregation that warmly welcomes both Jews and non-Jews who are Believers and non-Believers do not all sing in the same key if they are at least singing the same psalm. Certainly the process of disciple-making is as much a concern of the congregational leadership, rabbis & elders, as this "working out our salvation" is part of the ongoing struggle and process in a church. Yes?
What attracts Messianic Jews to a pentecostal expression of our faith? I trust that it is the same for non-Messianic Jews. We sense The Presence of GOD, RUACH HaKODESH, and we want to celebrate in the midst of His Saturating Presence. We want for ourselves, our family and our grandchildren to expereince in all the vibrancy our ancient traditions teach us, that revival fire that renews, restores, and reverberates deeply through our spirit as we connect again to ADONAI through His Only and Uniquely begotten Son, YESHUA The Messiah. Is it different for you Brother? Love and Prayers, Rabbi Eukel


_________________
Rabbi DF Eukel

 2004/11/27 22:18Profile
Nasher
Member



Joined: 2003/7/28
Posts: 404
Watford, UK

 Re: Jewish Roots: Rich, redemptive & Not Replaced

Quote:
Rav Sha'ul as a Hebrew of Hebrews, a rabbinic scholar who advanced ahead of others before the senority system would have elevated him, is "perfectly"
way, observant and submissive to the "kosher" teachings GOD first instructed through His leader Moshe in the First Covenant (not the "old" as if it were no longer applicable, or has currency - a distorted understanding that some here in this electronic community embrace, as if it were "replaced", i.e., done away with, when the New Covenant is canonized).



Please explain the following verses:

Hebrews 8:13
In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Hebrews 10:9
Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.


_________________
Mark Nash

 2004/11/29 2:23Profile
RabbiEukel
Member



Joined: 2004/11/18
Posts: 54
Southwest Missouri

 Jewish Roots: Rich, Redemptive & Not Replaced

Shalom ... Messianic Jews (Hebrews) 8:13 and 10:9 which you quote in KingJimmy must be explained, at least, within the context of the section 7:1-10:18. Verses 8b-12 of chapter 8 itself is the longest citation from the TaNaKh (First Covenant/Hebrew Scriptures) in the New Covenant/Testament. Greek uses two words for "new" - "kainos" and "neos." "Neos" as you know, means something which has never before existed. "Kainos" means freshness, renewal of something which has existed. This distinction is clearly captured by the Jewish disciple of YESHUA, Mattityahu (Matthew) at 9:16, 17 when he records YESHUA's teachings using the illustration of patching (adapting) an old coat with a fresh cloth and new (neos) wine in fresh (kainos) wineskins. With that preliminary, but brief, groundwork of understanding and your agreement of the understanding that the verses you quote in KingJimmy (8:13 and 10:9) cannot be removed from the context of the section 7:1-10:18, then we can slowly move on. Do we have agreement so far? Love and Prayers, Rabbi Eukel


_________________
Rabbi DF Eukel

 2004/11/29 5:00Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re: Jewish Roots: Rich, Redemptive & Not Replaced

Quote:
(Hebrews) 8:13 and 10:9 which you quote in [u]KingJimmy[/u] must be explained, at least, within the context of the section 7:1-10:18.

I would like to request a little more respect for this honoured translation. In the UK it is known as the Authorised Version (AV) and elsewhere as the King James Version (KJV). As a person who evidently sets much store by correct titles, I'm sure you won't mind this little courtesy. Thank you.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2004/11/29 6:12Profile
Nasher
Member



Joined: 2003/7/28
Posts: 404
Watford, UK

 Re: Jewish Roots: Rich, Redemptive & Not Replaced

Quote:
Greek uses two words for "new" - "kainos" and "neos." "Neos" as you know, means something which has never before existed. "Kainos" means freshness, renewal of something which has existed.



How do you explain this:

Hebrews 8:8
For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new [kainos] covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Hebrews 12:24
And to Jesus the mediator of the new [neos] covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.


_________________
Mark Nash

 2004/11/29 7:12Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re: the second covenant has replaced the first

Do I understand that your position is that the New Covenant is actually a Renewed Covenant rather than something a Brand New Covenant? Surely this would miss the strong point of Jeremiah [b] Behold, the days come, saith Jehovah, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was a husband unto them, saith Jehovah. [/b] (Jer 31:31-32 ASV)

The original Sinai Covenant was inaugurated by the shedding and sprinkling of the blood of bullocks which had been consumed in burnt and peace offerings. (Ex 24:5) That outworking of that covenant was external; all its rituals were external. The law was written on stone, the blood was sprinkled externally, the Spirit of God came upon people, water was used in ablutions, wine was poured out. It was an external covenant captured by Jeremiah in the phrase ‘I took them by the hand’; and idiom that has no New Covenant counterpart. Later came the promise of Emmanuel; God with us. This was the essence of the Sinai Covenant and is beautifully defined in the words of Christ concerning the Spirit; [b]… And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth [u]with[/u] you, and [u]shall be in[/u] you. [/b] (Joh 14:16-17 KJV) The New Covenant is internal.

Jeremiah’s New Covenant is boldly set out as a New Covenant [b] But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith Jehovah: I will put my law in their inward parts, and in their heart will I write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people: [/b] (Jer 31:33 ASV) This is clearly not the Covenant in being when Jeremiah gave the prophecy otherwise the time-shifts, after those days, makes no sense.

The Sinai Covenant brought into being the qahal of Jehovah. The idea first emerges of Israel as God’s ‘qahal’ in the instructions for the Passover as a preliminary to the nations becoming God’s special nation. The Sinai Covenant had this clearly in focus; [b] Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be mine own possession from among all peoples: for all the earth is mine: and ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and a holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel. [/b] (Exo 19:5-6 ASV) I think the first use of the phrase ‘qahal Jehovah’ is [b] and they assembled themselves together against Moses and against Aaron, and said unto them, Ye take too much upon you, seeing all the congregation are holy, every one of them, and Jehovah is among them: wherefore then lift ye up yourselves above the [u]assembly of Jehovah[/u]? [/b] (Num 16:3 ASV) I can find the phrase in Nu 16:3 20:4 De 23:1,2,3,8 Jud 21:5 1Ch 28:8 Mic 2:5.

In the Septuagint qahal was usually translated by the word ‘ekklesia’ which was a very appropriate word meaning the ‘outcalled’. As a result of their deliverance from Egypt and the enactment of the Sinai Covenant the nation of Israel became the ‘outcalled’, unique, people of God. That Covenant was given the infrastructure of a priesthood with very specific rituals and celebrations. The Covenant and the priesthood hood were inseparable. When Israel incurred sin the only basis upon which God would continue in their midst was through the annual Day of Atonement which could only be carried out by priests. If priests sinned there was an emergency sacrifice of the ashes of the red heifer, but the ashes of the red-heifer could only be prepared by a cleansed priest. This established a close cycle of events which when broken could never be re-established. Catch 22. You can’t cleanse the priest without the sacrifices and you can’t perform the sacrifices without a clean priest. Israel’s ‘holiness’ was ceremonial, and to use my previous word, external. (I am not talking about individuals and their walk with God but about the nation)

We can imagine the astonishment with the disciples heard the words captured in the inspired record as [b] And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock [u]I will build my church[/u]; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. [/b] (Mat 16:18 KJV) For men who already regarded themselves as an integral part of the ‘qahal’ of ‘ekklesia of God’ these words must have taken their breath away. This is not the ‘church (qahal) of God but the church of Christ. There is no indication that this is a refreshed ‘church of God’ but speaks in the future tense of an intention then future.

The letter to the Hebrews speaks of a contrast between a system of animal sacrifice which Christ did not come to ‘refresh’ but of a once-for-ever sacrifice. God’s pleasure was not in ‘burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin’ but in the One who fulfilled all the ancient types by His own death. Having contrasted the old sacrificial system and Christ’s own perfect fulfilling of the Father’s will the scripture continues [b] Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; [/b] (Heb 10:8-12 KJV) The era of the perpetual sacrifices and standing priests was over; the new era of one sacrifice and a sitting priest had been inaugurated. The writer sums up this in his phrase [b] Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, [u]that[/u] he may establish the second. [/b] (Heb 10:9 KJV) I don’t use the phrase ‘replacement theology’ myself but if ever there was a definition of ‘replacement theology’ it is here. He takes away the first; the system of animal sacrifice which was part of the infrastructure of that ‘first’ Covenant. Step One. The Greek behind the word ‘that’ is ‘iva’. This word is part of the strict logic of Greek thought; it is described as a primary conjuction denoting purpose, definition or result; in order that, that, so that: - . the NASB expresses it [b] then He said, "BEHOLD, I HAVE COME TO DO YOUR WILL." He takes away the first [u]in order[/u] to establish the second. [/b] (Heb 10:9 NASB) The ESV translates is [b] then he added, "Behold, I have come to do your will." He abolishes the first in order to establish the second. [/b] (Heb 10:9 ESV) The ESV is not too strong here. The verb ‘takes away’ is anaireO which is defined as to take up, that is, adopt; by implication to take away (violently), that is, abolish, murder: - put to death, kill, slay, take away, take up. It the KJV is it usually translated ‘put to death’ or ‘slay.

The first had to come to a complete end in order for the second to be established; this is istEmi meaning to stand something up in a specific place. The ‘place’ of course is the place where the first covenant had stood. This is not coexistence or progression but replacement. The Second Covenant replaced the First Covenant; it did not refresh it but replaced it.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2004/11/29 7:15Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re: R.C. Trench: Synonyms of the New Testament

Quote:
Greek uses two words for "new" - "kainos" and "neos." "Neos" as you know, means something which has never before existed. "Kainos" means freshness, renewal of something which has existed.



Contemplate the new under the aspects of time, as that which has recently come into existence, and this is "neos". Thus the young are continually "oi neoi", or "oi veOteroi", the generation which has but lately sprung up...
But contemplate the new, not under aspects of time, but quality, as new, as set over against that which has seen service, the outworn, the effete or marred through or marred through age, and this is "kainos": thus "kainon imation" (Lk 5:36), "a new garment", as contrasted with one threadbare and outworn; "kainoi askoi" "new wineskin" (Matt 9:17 Lk 5:38) and in this sense "ouranos" (2Pet 3:13) "a new heaven", as set over against that which has waxen old, and shows signs of decay and dissolution (Heb 1:11,12)
Joseph laid the body in a new tomb "kainon" unused though it may have been hewn out long before.

neotEs (1Tim 4:12) is youth, kainotEs (Rom 6:4) is newness or novelty

We may take for example the "neos anthrOpos" (new man) of Col 3:10 and the "kainos anthroOpos" (new man) of Eph 2:15. Contemplate under aspects of time that mighty change which has found and is still finding place in the man who has become obedient to the truth, and you will call him subsequently to this change "neos anthrOpos". The old man in him, and it well deserves this name, for it dates back as far back as Adam has died; a new man has been born, who therefore is fitly called "neos".But contemplate him again, and not now under aspects of time, but of quality and condition, this same mighty transformation; behold the man who, through long contact with the world, inveterate habits of sinning, had grown ourworn and old, casting off the old conversation, as the snake its shrivelled skin, coming forth again " a new creation" (kainE ktisis) from his heavenly Maker's hands, with a pneuma kainon given to him (Ezek 11:19) and you have here the kainos anthrOpos, one prepared to walk in newness of life (en kainotEti zOEs Rom 6:4) through the anakainOsis of the Spirit (Tit 3:15)

quoted from the Synonyms of the New Testament


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2004/11/29 7:23Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri

 Re: Jewish Roots: Rich, Redemptive & Not Replaced

Quote:
Is it different for you Brother?



Hi Bro. Eukel,

What sparked this question is that it seems I once heard my instructor say that he had gone to a Pentecostal Church as Orthodox Jew ( for whatever reason I am unsure) and it was all quite in conflict with what he believed as a Orthodox Jew, but he sensed the presense of God there and knew God was among the people. It (as I recall) was this sensing of the presence of God that led to a deeper search for Truth in the Messiah. In other words, it was not a well reasoned argument that convinced him, but was conscious awareness that God was near. (my rendition of his explaination)

God Bless,

-Robert


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2004/11/29 7:51Profile
RobertW
Member



Joined: 2004/2/12
Posts: 4636
St. Joseph, Missouri

 Re:

Quote:
The ESV is not too strong here. The verb ‘takes away’ is anaireO which is defined as to take up, that is, adopt; by implication to take away (violently), that is, abolish, murder: - put to death, kill, slay, take away, take up. It the KJV is it usually translated ‘put to death’ or ‘slay.



Hi Bro. Ron,


The common argument in Messianic circles is against "destroying" the law and the prophets. Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. (Matthew 5:18) As I understand it the word for destroy is Kataluo. The word then for fulfil is Pleroo. I tend to think about it like lecture notes that I used to get that had all kinds of blanks to fill in as the Instructor spoke (I suppose to both make it easy for us and yet make us stay awake). When I put the last word in the last 'blank' the notes were 'fulfilled.' Jesus filled in all the blanks and brought the Old Covenant to completion; but did not destroy it as it still has some uses if it is used lawfully. One of those uses is to look at what it really means to love each other and to act righteously. We can learn about God's holiness and righteousness etc,.

I think the problem was not the contents of the covenant in terms of God's revealed holiness and righteousness; but the means by which the Law was to be carried out. We CANNOT come under the Law for righteousness because we are carnal and sold under sin. Even though we are Born Again we still cannot come under that covenant because there is something in us that causes sin "to revive." yet, the righteous characteristics of the Law must be established in us as we walk in the Spirit.

The ceremonial things of the law teach us a lot; but God is interested in justice and the love of God; the things that many of the Pharisees ignored. They are the 'weightier' things. As Born again believers, these are a few things we ought to establish. As Paul wrote; Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. (Romans 3:31) Do we kenoo the Law by faith? Do we empty it or make it void? God forbid! We Histemi the Law. We stand it upright, not by the keeping of carnal ordinances, but by walking in the Spirit.

God Bless,

-Robert


_________________
Robert Wurtz II

 2004/11/29 8:32Profile





©2002-2024 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Revival to this Generation.
Privacy Policy