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Yeshuasboy
Member



Joined: 2006/6/10
Posts: 668
Northern Rockies, BC, Canada

 Re:

Easy believism and cross-less Christianity are synonymous topics.

If someone here is trying to imply, howsoever indirectly, that Paul Washer is judgemental, just come out and say it and stop beating around the bush. And if for some reason you think that, then I would suggest you do a study on "Judging Others" and really examine the lives of Jesus, the Apostles, and the Old Testament Prophets.

I would also look into the many threads in this site that have already discussed the issue of Judging - How to Judge & How not to Judge, etc, etc.

"For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves, but they, measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise."-2Cor 10:12 (kjv)

An undeserving brother,
richie


_________________
Richie

 2007/3/6 7:26Profile









 Re:

Friends,

My greatest fear is not that someone here is saying that Paul Washer is judgemental, but saying that without holiness we will still surely see the Lord...

If your faith in Jesus hasn't radically transformed your life, your faith is dead and worthless. The reason the son of God was manifest was to destroy the devils work. If any man be in Christ he is a brand new creation. These aren't just cute little sayings, they're basic truths of the new birth.

Imagine a blind man going to see a doctor who claims a 100% success rate in restoring sight. The man never undergoes the needed surgery though and remains blind, but claims that because he went and visited the doctor he can now see in theory. After all the doctor has a 100% success rate. Likewise the kingdom of God is not in word or in theory but in power. If you're only holy in theory, if you're only born again in theory then chase after God with all of your heart, He is a rewarder of those who dilligently seek Him.

I say this not to condemn anyone but to encourage everyone... be sure not to miss the grace of God through carnal thinking and making peace with sin and failure. The apostle Paul did not seem to view grace the way some on this forum do, consider what he wrote to the CHURCH

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.


Galatians 5:19-24
The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Little Children, do not let anyone decieve you... Jesus is mighty to save us from our sin, not to save us in our sin as some would believe.

In Christ - Jim

 2007/3/6 8:57
JennRich
Member



Joined: 2006/7/17
Posts: 140
Alabama

 Re:

Quote:

jimdied2sin wrote:
If your faith in Jesus hasn't radically transformed your life, your faith is dead and worthless.



Amen. . . it is heresy to say that we have to clean up our lives [i]in order to be saved[/i] -- that is impossible. But [i]after[/i] salvation has occured, the Holy Spirit does his gentle, effectual work of sanctification in the believer.

As my pastor said Sunday -- "Do you begin to love what you used to abhor, and abhor what you used to love?" No one can be perfectly holy, but our [i]natural affections[/i] will increasingly be for holy, true, beautiful things. These SHOW FORTH our salvation; they don't ACCOMPLISH our salvation.


_________________
Jennifer Richardson

 2007/3/6 9:50Profile
John173
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 289
Omaha

 Re:

My dear brothers and sisters,

No one here is attempting to justify sin. It is simply that there is a danger to us all of becoming judgemental in our zeal for God.

I spend one afternoon a week volunteering at the local mission. Missions as you know minister to the 'untuochables' of our society. Some of these come to know the reality of the gospel in this place and are truly redeemed. The mission has a live in discipleship program. Part of this program includes working in the mission helping out with the needs of operating such a large ministry. I work along side several of these men and women.

One of these women is in her mid forties. In her former life she hung out with the biker crowd. Hells angels and the ilk. Who can say how or why she got in with this crowd. The path there is irrelevant. The truth is that the combination of her own sin nature and whatever level of sin she encountered as a child, she grew rebelious and turned to that free spirited partying anti authority lifestyle. So there she is in her forties so messed up that she wound up on the doorstep of a homeless shelter needing some serious help. Praise the Lord these places exist, for she would likely have been turned away from most of our churches. It will take considerable time and patient teaching and mentoring before this child of God starts to look and act like she 'should'. I hope and pray that she will continue to encounter brothers and sisters who will love and accept her regardless of her rough edges. If she gets inwith a group of believers over zealous for outward growth who begin to reject her for not responding fast enough, her growth in the grace and knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ will likely be stymied.

Think about it this way. I am a real estate agent, so I walk through a wide variety of homes. Some older homes are in relatively good condition, they have been well cared for by their owners. Others have fallen into some degree of disrepair. These were not well cared for, life and time takes its toll. Some are in even worse condition. They have holes in the walls, doors kicked in, broken windows etc. in addition to the normal were and tear. Some even have cracked foundations and sloping floors. Imagine purchasing a house like this. It will take a great deal of time, effort, resources and materials to restore this home to wholeness. Are we able as christians to recognize that some lives are like this? Do not condemn them because you don't see these people as measuring up to your concept of holiness. To do so is to sin against the very heart of God. Salvation really is quite simple. If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart He is risen from the dead you shall be saved. It does not continue...but only if other believers are able to see some measurable holiness in your lives. Ugh, do you dare add this to the word of God?

In closing, let me say this about Paul Washer and the sermon that began this thread. I am in complete agreement with him. I love this man's heart. His is not the mentality I am adressing.

In His Love,

Doug


_________________
Doug Fussell

 2007/3/6 11:10Profile









 Re:

John 173...

Balance is beautiful when rooted in the truth of scripture. I appreciate the heart of what you are saying as I too work with the homeless and those who are outcasts of society in inner city Detroit.

You wrote

Quote:

Salvation really is quite simple. If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart He is risen from the dead you shall be saved.



Matthew 7
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Quote:

It does not continue...but only if other believers are able to see some measurable holiness in your lives. Ugh, do you dare add this to the word of God?



I added nothing brother, are you subtracting from it?

Luke 6
46"Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say? 47I will show you what he is like who comes to me and hears my words and puts them into practice. 48He is like a man building a house, who dug down deep and laid the foundation on rock. When a flood came, the torrent struck that house but could not shake it, because it was well built. 49But the one who hears my words and does not put them into practice is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation. The moment the torrent struck that house, it collapsed and its destruction was complete."

Matthew 7
17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

1 John 3
7Dear children, do not let anyone lead you astray. He who does what is right is righteous, just as he is righteous. 8He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work. 9No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.

My hope is that we are saying the same thing but talking about two different sides of the same coin. The scriptures I posted with my last reply clearly state that people who "confess and believe" but do not depart from iniquity will not inherit the kingdom and their fruit reveals this...

I did not make up any standard of holiness to judge by, I have quoted the word of God and stand by it. We are saved by grace through faith in Christ alone. Not the false grace of modern christianity, but the true life changing grace of Jesus Christ.

Spiritual blessings in Him - Jim

 2007/3/6 12:03
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
Matthew 7
17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.



All your other Scriptures were good, but this deals with false prophets, and not believers. Other than that good stuff


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/3/6 12:23Profile
John173
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 289
Omaha

 Re:

Jim,

[color=0000CC]Matthew 7
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'[/color]

I think we ultimately do agree, as I mentioned at the end of my previous post, I agree with both the heart and message that began this discussion. The above referenced scripture was at the heart of that sermon. The scripture also warns us to 'make our calling and election sure.' It is tragically true that millions of Americans have not done this and indeed are not saved.

[color=0000CC]It does not continue...but only if other believers are able to see some measurable holiness in your lives. Ugh, do you dare add this to the word of God? [/color]

This was not directed at anyone imparticular. To some degree or another I think we have all been guilty of this attitude. It is very subtle and hard to detect at times. We need to continually search our hearts in our attitudes toward each other. I have seen a post here and there that says something like 'if you're really saved you should...' thereby calling into question someones salvation based on works. Dangerous stuff that.

[color=0000CC]Salvation really is quite simple. If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart He is risen from the dead you shall be saved. [/color]


The key element here is the believe in your heart portion. It is true that many confess the Lord but fail this second requirement, we however cannot discern this unless perhaps the Holy Spirit speaks to our heart on specific occasions. For highly 'disfunctional' people it can take quite some time before any real evidence is obvious. In most cases there is a change in the language (swearing) but not much else. When I hear someone claiming to be a christian who swears like a sailor I must admit I too have my doubts.

In His Love,

Doug


_________________
Doug Fussell

 2007/3/6 15:00Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

We have to determine what the Chrsitian life is. I believe some here think it to be a thing in which you "arrive" one day into a sinless bliss, and can then justly cast verbal stones at any who are not living up to your perceived level of spirituality.

Of course there may be others who say, " lighten up, grace grace..."

But isn't the Christian life utter and thourough dependence upon Christ? Every minute of every day? I believe this alone would make a man "examine himslelf" to see whether he is in the faith or not. Yet as Paul said,
" Romans 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand."

I know that we all desire great things, and well we should. But let us not despise the days of small things either. The danger in having so much wonderful preaching and exhortation is that we can become either numb or judgemental.

Brethren there is a Pharissee in each one of us, and if it is not delivered to death daily it will spill out into everything we do. We must tread with the utmost wisdom when dealing with souls both here and in our daily lives. How do you know if someone on here has not just been saved, and is not even close being mature in the faith, yet then they get blasted for not being mature. Tis much like asking a newborn to walk and then kicking it because it cannot.

Wisdom is a part of holiness as is love, let us not forget that.


_________________
patrick heaviside

 2007/3/6 15:37Profile









 Re:

Doug-

Thanks for clarifying the last comment. I read it different then you wrote it and am glad that we are in agreement. I agree that there is a biblical (rightous) and unbiblical (unrightous) way in which we set standards for others. For instance we are commanded by Paul not to associate with anyone who calls themselves a brother and is sexually immoral. Its when we add our own convictions in that we show our pride. Like if I said anyone who listens to rap music and claims to be a brother should be treated as a heathen :0)

Stand strong in Him brother.

- Jim

 2007/3/6 15:46
Isaiah64
Member



Joined: 2006/9/27
Posts: 85


 Re:

J-Bird,
you wrote:

Quote:
Well, well. Look at how HOLY I am I don't do all these things that you do. I'm SOOOO spiritual and I'm a christian, not you, because I do this and this, and this, and don't do this. You are sooo decieved because you watched a dirty movie, or listen to Britney Spears your not really a christian because your not very holy.



And then you wrote:

Quote:
Rom. 2:1 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest DOEST THE SAME THINGS.



First, I want to let you know that what I'm going to say, I say in love. I'm not angry at you, nor do I wish to promote any more quarreling in these forums. But I believe you need to be rebuked for the statements you have made on this thread.
To tell you the truth, the comments quoted above really grieve my heart. Not only have you hypocritically judged brother Washer without knowing his heart, his motives, having listened to any other sermons of his, or knowing anything about him, but you have quoted the very Scripture which condemns [i]you[/i] of doing the [i]same thing[/i] you accuse him of doing.

Quote:
He needs to grow, and he will. Hopefully



Brother, this is a very condescending remark. It seems as if [i]you[/i] are the one with the "I'm more spiritual" attitude. I'm sorry, but this is shameful and plain wrong.

Quote:
It seems to me, and this is just an [b]assumption[/b], that he's mixed up in his foundational doctines, as I have been, and I say this because It's easy to pick up on when you've been there. without the frim foundation of the doctine of justification all else is a farce. It sounds good what he's saying, but it's just not biblical.



"A fool uttereth all his mind: but a wise man keepeth it in till afterwards."
Proverbs 29:11

"Seest thou a man that is hasty in his words? there is more hope of a fool than of him."
Proverbs 29:20

"Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath"
James 1:19

Please heed to the above verses. Rather than make an assumption, why not find out what he actually believes by going to his ministry webstite (www.heartcrymissionary.com) and listening to the sermons in which he speaks on justification? I would recommend listening to "The Greatest Text in the Bible" and "The Meaning of the Cross."

Quote:
Listen, I can right a message that would have ministers doubting their own salvation, but what good is that. I think we should build peoples faith, and hope, and love by the word of God instead of condemn the justified. Just preach the cross and let God do the drawing.



"Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you are disqualified. But I trust that you will know that we are not disqualified."
2 Corninthians 13:4-6

"For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins.
Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ."
2 Peter 1:9-11

As these verses show, we are to examine ourselves. And the first epsitle of John is full of verses which distinguish between true and false converts.
And furthermore, the purpose of the sermon was not to make any believer doubt their salvation, but to make the many false converts see that they had no salvation to begin with. As Mr. Washer pointed out, there are thousands of professing Christians who live like the world and believe themselves to be saved simply because they came down to an altar and repeated a prayer. It's almost like catholic confession. And worse yet, we have many pastors today who, in their attempts to "build people's faith" and not "condemn the justified," are giving these professors of religion FALSE ASSURANCE of salvation.

Quote:
easy believism? What the opposite of that? Hard believism? that don't even sound right, "easy believism". The legalists don't like that, but it is that simple.



Really? Is it easy to give up a lifestyle of sin? Is it easy to let go of your pride, and throw yourself at the mercy of Jesus? If it were easy, then it wouldn't be a narrow path, now would it?

Quote:
I see a young man who's all but sealing his fate as a BAPTIST preacher.



You are absolutely correct. Such was the fate of the prophets. Such was the fate of the apostles. They boldly declared the truth in love, and dearly payed the price for it. Our own Lord and Savior was rejected, falsely accused, persecuted, and crucified. Do you expect to receive better treatment than the Son of God?

Perhaps you have misunderstood this sermon. You said his preaching reminded you of yourself. However, just because you preached with wrong motives doesn't mean Paul Washer has the same problem. Again, I say this in love brother, you have misjudged Washer, and have made assumption after assumption without knowing anything about his life. I would recommend listening to the message again, and listening to some of his other sermons. Pray about it, and examine the Scriptures to see if what he is saying is true. It's not about your opinions or experience--it's about what the Word of God says. Read 2 Corinthians 10:5. We are to bring every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ.
Hope you do take this into consideration.
God bless you.

 2007/3/6 16:11Profile





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