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Discussion Forum : General Topics : I am so sick of the easy-believism that is so prevailant in American Christianity!

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 Re:

Quote:

myfirstLove wrote:
j-bird, your saying paul is judging? what are you doing? Your doing the same thing that you are telling others not to do. Sounds like you are judging Paul like a pharisee without looking at the fruit.

Didn't Jesus say that you will know them by their fruit? Jesus tells us to use righteos judgement or else we will be deceived by false doctrines, wolves , and false brothers.

We should not use our experience to correct others. What does the word say?

Hi myfirstlove,

Sorry if this offended you brother. Maybe your right. Maybe I was too hard on him. I guess we'll see where he goes in his ministry. I see a young man who's all but sealing his fate as a BAPTIST preacher. Or maybe not. I hope not.

 2007/3/4 17:33









 Re:

Quote:

LittleGift wrote:
Quote:

J-bird wrote:
Quote:

mom23beagles wrote:
Wow, I didn't sense any judgment from Paul Washer in his message. His emphasis was more that the "once saved, always saved" doctrine is not biblical and you can't just go on your merry way and sin as you like and never repent just because you prayed the sinner's prayer. Maybe it's just me? Help me understand what you mean, J-bird. I didn't have a "holier than thou" sense coming from him or message.

Mia and Bailey, Dugan, Buddy and Agnes the beagles.

Right, because he seemed so humble? Humility is just a cover alot of times. Know that from experience also. :-D Hey, anything to try to get people to the alter. I was almost convinced I was the ONLY one really saved. I even doubted my wife was saved. She's more consistent in her prayer life than me, she should have doubted mine. This is a wicked evil heart my friend, and I can say that because I was there. My heart was so wicked and I was so bitter and judgemental. Your not really saved look at how wretched you are, your a discusting sinner. No I did'nt say that. I framed it up into a humble little picture that seemed so sincere, but that's what I was thinking.

I would say things like "I'm telling you this because I love you". I did'nt love anybody, I WANTED THEM TO CONFORM TO MY STANDARDS.


Still reading through this thread, (and trying to carry on a MSN converstation at the same time!) but think I'm beginning to realise where you're coming from, Jay.

You are especially sensitive to wrong motives in this area because you've been there, is that it?

But becasue your motives were wrong that time you spoke of, doesn't mean this man's are necessarily wrong. Maybe he's managed by the grace of God to avoid this particular pitfall?

Its so subtle - the Lord has been convicting me of something similar. Maybe becaues I'm female it comes in the form of "needing to be needed" and trying to "correct" people "in love".

In fact I'm probably doing that at this very moment! :oops:

I'm off before I put my foot in it again!

Love in Him

jeannette


wanted to add this little gift.

Sometimes the best way we learn about anything that has to do with us is to study our own selves. Sigmund Freud learned almost everything about psycology by studying himself. If we we look inward while studying the word and watching, it will reveal things that were other wise hidden. There is a danger to this.

We have to become vulnerable and completely honest with ourselves. It hurts sometimes and we see how ugly we are, but theres no better way to know what we have in Christ.

Sometimes people use that vulnerability against us, and take that honesty and run with it, but that's o.k. God sees the heart.

 2007/3/4 17:48
andres
Member



Joined: 2005/6/17
Posts: 285
texas,brownsville

 Re:

does anyone know or have a bio on Paul Washer like how old he is, and How many years he has been in the ministry? or is there a sermon where he gives his testimony?
love andy


_________________
andy

 2007/3/4 19:30Profile
JennRich
Member



Joined: 2006/7/17
Posts: 140
Alabama

 Re:

Quote:

andres wrote:
does anyone know or have a bio on Paul Washer like how old he is, and How many years he has been in the ministry? or is there a sermon where he gives his testimony?
love andy



I go to church with him & his family; his wife and I are good friends. Bro. Paul is about 45. They have 2 little boys and are expecting a little girl in June. Go to the Heartcry website for more info about his ministry (look on the left side of the Sermon Index screen -- there's a link).


_________________
Jennifer Richardson

 2007/3/4 21:06Profile
John173
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 289
Omaha

 Re:

Somewhere in all of this there must be a balance. I agree with much of what J-bird is saying regarding attempting to ascertain whether or not someone is saved and judging them based on appearance.

On the other hand, I also agree with the hearts cry that our brother Paul was pouring out in this sermon. There is absolutely no doubt that volumes of americans are going to get the shock of their lives, make that their eternities on that fateful day.

However, this is where I believe Paul may have been a little off base. I think we must be careful to understand what Jesus meant when He talked about fruit bearing on good/bad trees. Fruit does not equal maturity or even santification. A life that is [i]being[/i] sanctified by the Lord will [i]in time [/i] bear good fruit. Has anyone ever seen a sapling fruit tree bearing any fruit at all? Even when these trees do begin to bear fruit it is often small with a relatively paltry harvest.

And just what is bad fruit? I wrestled with this in prayer before coming back to post this reply. I believe now that bad fruit is refering to broken relationships and damaged people left in the wake of someones life. This is perhaps too simple an answer to this question, though I am convinced it leads in the right general direction.

Now for a bit of personal testimony. In 1978 I was a 16 year old headbangin', dope smokin', class cuttin' punk of a human being. A friend of mine from school belonged to a youth group from the local Southern Baptist church. They were planning a snow trip Lake Tahoe in the Sierra Mountains. He invited me to go and on the trip I came to realize that there really was a God.

I knew without a doubt that if God was real then Jesus was His Son. The moment I recognized God's reality I walked into the church and 'got saved' by saying the sinners prayer. At that moment God and only God was capable of judging the sincerity of my prayer and/or my standing before Him. I know in my heart that had I died in that moment I would have been redeemed.

Upon returning to the reality of high school it didn't take long for the temptation of skipping a class and goin' to the crick to get stoned presented itself. I failed that test miserably, and continued to fail for another three years, though I kept up church attendance for the first year. Was I growing in the Lord during this period? Absolutely not! Was I a child of God? Absolutely, the seed was in my heart, I just didn't have a clue as to how to live it out.

During this time I was protected and watched over by my faithful Father. One way He covered me was in the area of my future career as a truck driver. It is nearly impossible to get a trucking job if you have any drunk driving or drug convictions. In those four years I was pulled over on four seperate occasions while drunk. Usually very drunk. Not a single DUI. Another time I had a joint in plain view when an officer searched my car (I was sober). He warned me not to smoke the stuff and let me go. Still another occasion I was arrested for some outstanding fix it tickets (pathetic, huh). I had hallucenigenic mushrooms in my pocket. No charges were ever filed. This was the grace of God. Anyone who looked at the 'fruit' in my life would have concluded, and many did, that I was on the road to hell.

While it is tempting to judge outward appearances, it is dangerous to do so. The 'fruit' of such judgement may just be to drive someone away from the grace of God, instead of drawing them in to His loving arms.

In His Love,

Doug


_________________
Doug Fussell

 2007/3/4 22:06Profile









 Re:

Quote:

John173 wrote:
Somewhere in all of this there must be a balance. I agree with much of what J-bird is saying regarding attempting to ascertain whether or not someone is saved and judging them based on appearance.

On the other hand, I also agree with the hearts cry that our brother Paul was pouring out in this sermon. There is absolutely no doubt that volumes of americans are going to get the shock of their lives, make that their eternities on that fateful day.

However, this is where I believe Paul may have been a little off base. I think we must be careful to understand what Jesus meant when He talked about fruit bearing on good/bad trees. Fruit does not equal maturity or even santification. A life that is [i]being[/i] sanctified by the Lord will [i]in time [/i] bear good fruit. Has anyone ever seen a sapling fruit tree bearing any fruit at all? Even when these trees do begin to bear fruit it is often small with a relatively paltry harvest.

And just what is bad fruit? I wrestled with this in prayer before coming back to post this reply. I believe now that bad fruit is refering to broken relationships and damaged people left in the wake of someones life. This is perhaps too simple an answer to this question, though I am convinced it leads in the right general direction.

Now for a bit of personal testimony. In 1978 I was a 16 year old headbangin', dope smokin', class cuttin' punk of a human being. A friend of mine from school belonged to a youth group from the local Southern Baptist church. They were planning a snow trip Lake Tahoe in the Sierra Mountains. He invited me to go and on the trip I came to realize that there really was a God.

I knew without a doubt that if God was real then Jesus was His Son. The moment I recognized God's reality I walked into the church and 'got saved' by saying the sinners prayer. At that moment God and only God was capable of judging the sincerity of my prayer and/or my standing before Him. I know in my heart that had I died in that moment I would have been redeemed.

Upon returning to the reality of high school it didn't take long for the temptation of skipping a class and goin' to the crick to get stoned presented itself. I failed that test miserably, and continued to fail for another three years, though I kept up church attendance for the first year. Was I growing in the Lord during this period? Absolutely not! Was I a child of God? Absolutely, the seed was in my heart, I just didn't have a clue as to how to live it out.

During this time I was protected and watched over by my faithful Father. One way He covered me was in the area of my future career as a truck driver. It is nearly impossible to get a trucking job if you have any drunk driving or drug convictions. In those four years I was pulled over on four seperate occasions while drunk. Usually very drunk. Not a single DUI. Another time I had a joint in plain view when an officer searched my car (I was sober). He warned me not to smoke the stuff and let me go. Still another occasion I was arrested for some outstanding fix it tickets (pathetic, huh). I had hallucenigenic mushrooms in my pocket. No charges were ever filed. This was the grace of God. Anyone who looked at the 'fruit' in my life would have concluded, and many did, that I was on the road to hell.

While it is tempting to judge outward appearances, it is dangerous to do so. The 'fruit' of such judgement may just be to drive someone away from the grace of God, instead of drawing them in to His loving arms.

In His Love,

Doug

Wonderful testimony brother. Thanks for the honesty. :-)

 2007/3/4 22:23
John173
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 289
Omaha

 Re:

No problem J,

I am who I am today by the grace of God. I see no reason to hide my past from anyone, least of all the saints of God.

May blessings from above rain down on you,

Doug


_________________
Doug Fussell

 2007/3/4 22:44Profile
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Too often the conversations about holiness are reduced to focusing on the issue of security...but the issue is much more then that. We became Christians to follow close to Jesus...to practice his presence. We died to the law, so that we could be divorced from it...so that we could be bound to the Lord as his servant and even his bethrothed!

Maturity is hardly the issue here, for even immature Christians should want to abide in Christ. Certainly we understand that there is growth in character...but the truly repentent heart is wholey given over to following Jesus. So even if we could somehow all agree that holiness is not required for security we could never conclude that holiness is nonessential for abiding in fellowship with Jesus. Haven't we all had our hearts broken over some besetting sin...aching not because we deserve condemnation...but because our sin interfered with our connection to the presence of Christ? Is this not the heartbeat of the Christian? The law does not bring us lasting peace, nor does sin bring us lasting pleasure...but the Lord is a source of everlasting comfort.

This is why it is so puzzling that many Christians defend their security while practicing habitual sins, because security in the next life is not the deeper heart's concern of the Christian. What true Christian doesn't want to be close to God in this life...to be his friend...to practice his presence daily? God has the water that we should never thirst!

So in general, this is one tragic characteristic of easy believism: Christians who are more concerned about their security then they are about knowing God. The opposite of easy believism is holiness. The immense value of holiness to the Christian is not merely to know how to keep the law...but to know how to keep the presence of God.:-)

Blessings,

MC


_________________
Mike Compton

 2007/3/4 23:26Profile
myfirstLove
Member



Joined: 2005/11/26
Posts: 496


 Re:

It is a dangerouse thing to use our experience as a guide than what the word of God says, a very foolish and selfish thing to compare ourselves with others instead of comparing ourselves to the word of God.

To man, the sin always seems little when looking at it thru his own eyes and judging by the flesh. We must see it thru God's eyes, His word, by His Spirit.

What does His word say about practicing sin? Not what your flesh wants to hear and believe. What does the word of God say about your situation, your problem, about being lukewarm, being a true disciple ect..? Compare yourselves by the word of God and not by man's standard, his feelings, but, what does the word of God say.



Galatians 5:24-25
24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

2 Timothy 2:19
19 Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ "depart from iniquity.”


_________________
Lisa

 2007/3/5 0:02Profile









 Re:

Quote:

myfirstLove wrote:
It is a dangerouse thing to use our experience as a guide than what the word of God says, a very foolish and selfish thing to compare ourselves with others instead of comparing ourselves to the word of God.

To man, the sin always seems little when looking at it thru his own eyes and judging by the flesh. We must see it thru God's eyes, His word, by His Spirit.

What does His word say about practicing sin? Not what your flesh wants to hear and believe. What does the word of God say about your situation, your problem, about being lukewarm, being a true disciple ect..? Compare yourselves by the word of God and not by man's standard, his feelings, but, what does the word of God say.



Galatians 5:24-25
24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

2 Timothy 2:19
19 Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ "depart from iniquity.”

I use my experiences all the time to help understand others. Theres nothing wrong with that brother. You do it too, you may not realize it but you do. If your saying I can't know someone elses heart by my own experiences your absolutely right, I can't truly know their heart, but I can make an assumption, "hypothesis" and that's what I did and I said that in one of my posts.

It's not a dangerous thing to use the tools God has given us to help us in ministry. God gave us a brain to use. I think good common "horse since" is the only thng needed sometimes. :-)

 2007/3/5 6:51





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