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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Hebrews 6:4-6 - What Does It Mean?

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roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Right, but now how does a man go from hating God to wanting to please God?

This is important, as it will help to start you off either secure in Christ or inseccure in yourself

Brother Richard good to have you back in on this conversation. :-D


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patrick heaviside

 2007/2/26 15:19Profile
HomeFree89
Member



Joined: 2007/1/21
Posts: 797
Indiana

 Re:

Quote:

staff wrote:
RE:Qoute below by homefree89:

No, if you have child that trys to please you and do what's right, but sometimes fails would characterize him as disobedient? Would you take him out of your will because he sometimes disobeys you

Well in the case I outlined we dont know whether or not the supposed child would have continued in his disobedience or returned to be obedient because he died.Also if your are obedient,disobedient,obedient,disobedient etc does that mean he was saved,not saved,saved,not saved.Thirdly is disobedience a series of wrongs or just one wrong;what I mean is David was disobedient and he did only one thing wrong in getting a census of the nation.Is disobedience just sin or a series of sins?
No I would not take him out of my will for being sometimes disobedient nor for disobeying alot,nor for disobeying me totally.However their would be consequences

Rgds Staff




Staff,

I think you're going about this in the wrong way. I'm not saying, if you sin your not a Christian. What I'm saying is that, you can willfully go back to the world and choose not to live for Christ anymore (like Demas).

"For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them." - 1 Peter 2:20-21

Jordan


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Jordan

 2007/2/26 15:35Profile
BenWilliams
Member



Joined: 2006/12/11
Posts: 351
El Paso, Texas

 Re:

The Lord Convicts him of his sin. As Paul said:
[b][color=CC0000]
Galatians 3:24

Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.[/color][/b]

God bears witness in his conscience of the righteous judgment of God in sending him to hell.

The man is fearful of the wrath of God and the eternal destiny of his soul, and he will cry out to God for mercy, repenting. Then he will put his faith in Jesus Christ to save him, and God justifies him.

[b]The tool God will use to judge men at the judgment seat is the same tool He uses to bring them to repentance. It is their conscience.[/b]

It is only by the [u]revelation of ones sinfulness, and the righteousness of God's judgment that a man can repent and believe God[/u] for eternal life.


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Benjamin Williams

 2007/2/26 15:43Profile
roaringlamb
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 1519
Santa Cruz California

 Re:

Quote:
God bears witness in his conscience of the righteous judgment of God in sending him to hell.



From your own words you have spoken what we have been getting at all along.

It is God that does the work, man has no ability to do any work toward his salvation. This should cause us to rejoice if we have repented, knowing that the conviction was not brought about by ourselves, but rather God who has begun a good work in us, and sustains that work until the day of Christ.


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patrick heaviside

 2007/2/26 15:49Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Quote:
It is only by the revelation of ones sinfulness, and the righteousness of God's judgment that a man can repent and believe God for eternal life.



Who reveals ones sinfulness?

 2007/2/26 15:57Profile
staff
Member



Joined: 2007/2/8
Posts: 1607


 Re:


Homefree89 wrote

"For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them." - 1 Peter 2:20-21

Jordan

Yes that is clearer however it doesnt prove that demas looses his salvation.It might just mean he looses all the blessings and advantages in this life and will ultimately loose his rewards in heaven rather than his salvation,
rgds staff

 2007/2/26 18:18Profile
Christinyou
Member



Joined: 2005/11/2
Posts: 3707
Ca.

 Re:

Quote: by Ben, "Do you think that God is so omniscient that He can forget our sins?"

No.

That is why He is Justified in saving some by His Son through Grace by His Faith and Through The Grace of God, as Noah.

Genesis 6:1-14 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.

And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.

((But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.)

These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God. And Noah begat three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch.

Grace and Condemnation. But,

Jhn 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Jhn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Rom 5:16 And not as [it was] by one that sinned, [so is] the gift: for the judgment [was] by one to condemnation, but the free gift [is] of many offences unto justification.

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.

Rom 8:1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Condemnation on all who sin, but Grace unto some, and No condemnation for those that are in Christ Jesus because they believe God through the Holy Spirit.

In Christ: Phillip



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Phillip

 2007/2/26 19:11Profile
BenWilliams
Member



Joined: 2006/12/11
Posts: 351
El Paso, Texas

 Re:

roaringlamb wrote:

Quote:
From your own words you have spoken what we have been getting at all along

It is God that does the work, man has no ability to do any work toward his salvation. This should cause us to rejoice if we have repented, knowing that the conviction was not brought about by ourselves, but rather God who has begun a good work in us, and sustains that work until the day of Christ.



What I meant by "God bears witness" is "The Holy Spirit compounds the conviction of the man's own conscience. If that makes it clearer.

However, [b]conviction alone does not save a man.[/b] It only convicts him. From that point a man has the choice of either repenting, or not repenting. Whichever he chooses determines the Lord's next step.

(For clarification, the Lord knows what he himself is going to do next. Simply because the man does not repent, does not mean that the Lord would not come and reveal his sinfulness to the man.)

[b][color=CC0000]
Romans 2:15

15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)[/color][/b]

Man does not need God's help to know that what he has done is wrong, God implanted a conscience within each one of us to convict us of sin. This is why the world stands in judgement. Without the conscience, God would be unjust in his judgments.

The conviction was brought about by God implanting it in everyones DNA. The compounded conviction of the Holy Spirit was not. The two work together to bring a man to repentance.

The word conscience means - con = with - science = knowledge. So the word conscience means "with knowledge." God has given man knowledge of right and wrong within himself.

Here's a list of what takes place according to scripture:

Conviction - Conviction happens by mans conscience, and the Holy Spirit.

Repentance - Man repents, God does not repent for him, this is a choice that man makes.

Believe - Man believes in God they put their faith in Jesus Christ.

Justification - God justifies a man, nothing a man does outside of repenting and believing will give him salvation. This cannot be denied. If a man were to say that he was saved and then say that God believes for Him, and God repented for Him, he would be called a heretic and a sinner. And told to repent.

I think I got the answer to your question Jay as well, if not let me know.


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Benjamin Williams

 2007/2/27 11:46Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Quote:
Here's a list of what takes place according to scripture:
Conviction - Conviction happens by mans conscience, and the Holy Spirit.
Repentance - Man repents, God does not repent for him, this is a choice that man makes.
Believe - Man believes in God they put their faith in Jesus Christ.
Justification - God justifies a man, nothing a man does outside of repenting and believing will give him salvation. This cannot be denied. If a man were to say that he was saved and then say that God believes for Him, and God repented for Him, he would be called a heretic and a sinner. And told to repent.
I think I got the answer to your question Jay as well, if not let me know.



I agree with all of this. I must stress however the internal calling of God cannot be resisted by man. (Romans 8:30). Therefore some men are internally called and some are not. Those who are repent, those who are not...do not.

 2007/2/27 13:15Profile
BenWilliams
Member



Joined: 2006/12/11
Posts: 351
El Paso, Texas

 Re:

Well Jay, at least we agree on the fundamentals of salvation, and how a person is saved.

But I'm afraid that on anything else having to do with salvation we just can't seem to see eye to eye.
--------------------------------------------------

Now, as for the issue of internal/external calling...

Quote:
I agree with all of this. I must stress however the internal calling of God cannot be resisted by man. (Romans 8:30). Therefore some men are internally called and some are not. Those who are repent, those who are not...do not.



I still am at a loss as to how you determine with any verse, not just Romans 8:29-30, that it is an internal or external calling that is being mentioned.

I find throughout the whole NT many scriptures that use the words call, calling, and called.

[b]Are you determining the meaning of the word based off of a theological stance, or off of the original meaning of the word in context with the rest of the verse?[/b]


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Benjamin Williams

 2007/2/27 13:28Profile





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