SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Image Map
Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : Philologos

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 Next Page )
PosterThread
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Philologos

This question is for Philologos or anyone who has an advanced understanding of Greek.

Regarding Galatians 2:20, is it correct to translate this verse as 'faith of God' or 'faith in God'.

By the way, to all who are reading, this is not intended to be a King James Only thread and I do not want it to go into that direction. I am just seeking information on the Greek.

Galatians 2:20

English Standard Version (ESV)

20I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.


New American Standard Bible (NASB)

20"I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

King James Version (KJV)

20I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

New King James Version (NKJV)

20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.


Thanks

 2007/2/6 13:51Profile
sermonindex
Moderator



Joined: 2002/12/11
Posts: 37587
"Pilgrim and Sojourner." - 1 Peter 2:11

Online!
 Re: Philiologos

I believe the textus receptus translates this phrase correctly putting it: "faith [b]of[/b] the Son of God"

What "faith" do we have unless it has been given to us.


_________________
SI Moderator - Greg Gordon

 2007/2/6 13:58Profile









 Re: Philiologos

I'm not much of a Greek scholar but looked it up in Strong's Concordance, and also an interlinear (English words underneath the Greek text).

According to this Interlinear version, the literal translation is: [i][b] [color=000066] "...no longer I, but lives in me Christ; but that which now I live in flesh, in faith I live, that of the Son of God, who loved me and gave up himself for me." [/color][/b][/i]

Of course it wouldn't be translated like that because the Greek word order sounds odd in English, and sometimes doesn't have the same meaning if translated word for word.

The important thing, I think, is that it seems to be saying (changing the word order to make it clearer) [b] [color=000066]"...I live [i]IN[/i] the faith of the Son of God..."[/color][/b]

As I said, I'm not much of a Greek scholar, and the actual meaning may not be as it seems, but doctrinally I find that mind-blowing - living IN His faith!!!???

Yours IN Him :-D

Jeannette

 2007/2/6 14:46









 Re:

Those litle Preps can make it say more or less depending on which one is used.

John 13:35 (KJV)
35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

John 13:35 (NASB)
35 "By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."

John 13:35 (NLT)
35 Your love for one another will prove to the world that you are my disciples."

John 13:35 (MSG)
35 This is how everyone will recognize that you are my disciples—when they see the love you have for each other."

"TO" connotes action. "FOR" holds it in reserve maybe seen, maybe not. Who could tell unto it becomes "TO".

 2007/2/6 14:57
ccchhhrrriiisss
Member



Joined: 2003/11/23
Posts: 4527


 Re: Philiologos

Hi JaySaved...

I don't mean to interject when you are asking something from another brother. However, I wanted to interject something concerning the use of prepositions.

[i]...the painting of the Lord[/i].

This can have [u]two[/u] meanings. It can mean [i]a painting that depicted the Lord[/i] -or- it can depict [i]the Lord's dominion or authority concerning the painting[/i]. Similar examples of dual meaning could be used for many such prepositions. In your example, the KJV uses the term "[i]...faith of the Son of God[/i]." Does this refer to [i]the Son of God's faith[/i] -or- [i]faith in the Son of God[/i]?

We might be careful to understand the usage in regards to literal interpretation. It could mean the difference in the interpretation of "[i]taking up serpents[/i]."

I am also eagerly waiting for Philologo's response.

:-)


_________________
Christopher

 2007/2/6 17:24Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
I am also eagerly waiting for Philologo's response.


Gee, I can hardly wait to see what I might say!;-)
[color=0000ff]εν πιστει ζω τη του υιου του Θεου, (Gal 2:20 GNT-TRS)[/color] The literal translation of this phrase would be something like [color=0000ff]in/by faith I live the of the Son of the God[/color] so its one of those places where an interlinear struggles to get to the real meaning. Let’s unpack it

[b]εν πιστει ζω[/b] This would give something like ‘I live by faith’ The Greek preposition ‘en’ means ‘in’ or ‘within’ but it is sometimes used ‘instrumentally’ (bet you wished you hadn’t asked now!) When Biblical Greek want to say ‘kill with the sword’ it would use ‘en’ in the sense of ‘by the sword’; the sword being the ‘instrument’ of the killing. We have to take note of the context to see which is most appropriate. In this instance my judgement would be that it means ‘by faith’. It should be noted that there is no definite article here and those Cambridge Bibles that we have been hearing about should have put the word ‘the’ into italics so that it read [color=0000ff]“I now live in [i]the[/i] flesh” (Gal 2:20 KJVS)[/color] More modern versions have sometimes corrected this eg [color=0000ff]“I now live in the flesh I live in faith” (Gal 2:20 ASV)
“I live by faith” (Gal 2:20 NKJV)[/color]So it is not ‘the faith’ of the Son of God but ‘faith’.

Next we have the bit τη του υιου του Θεου where
[b]τη[/b] is ‘the definite article’ and is Dative, Singular, Feminine. It is referring backwards to the feminine gender word ‘faith’. I think it could best be translated as ‘that’. So that the sentence now reads “I live by faith, that (faith)”
[b]του υιου[/b] is the definite article and is Genitive, Singular, Masculine followed by the word ‘son’. This is the Greek way of saying ‘belonging to the son’.
[b]του Θεου[/b] the definite article and is Genitive, Singular, Masculine followed by the word ‘God’. This is the Greek way of saying ‘belonging to God’.

So we have a reference to God’s Son’s faith. The question then is does this mean ‘faith in him’ or ‘faith from him’? I think it means the kind of faith that he had, which was the faith of a son. In Roman’s Paul refers to Abraham’s faith[color=0000ff]“And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.” (Rom 4:12 KJVS)[/color] Again the word 'faith' is without the definite article. It is literally ‘in the steps of our father Abraham’s faith’; this is the same kind of construction as Galatians 2:20.

It is referring to ‘Abrahamic faith’, the kind of faith that Abraham had; we sometimes call this 'justifying faith'. Jews had to have both circumcision AND Abrahamic faith. The point I am making is that Abraham did not give them this faith, it was faith like Abraham's. If we carry through this idea of a ‘kind of faith’ into Galatians it seems that Paul is referring to the ‘kind of faith’ that the Son had. This would be significant because Paul later goes on to point out that ‘faith’ has now arrived (Gal 3:25) and is part of the way in which we become ‘sons’ of God, God giving us the Spirit of his Son.

John Wesley was questioned about his claims that before his ‘warm heart’ experience he did not have ‘faith’. His questioners reminded him that he was Anglican priest and had been a missionary to the American colonies. His answer was that the faith he had then was the faith of a slave not that of a son.

I don’t think Galatians 2:20 is talking about Christ’s own personal faith being given to us, but of Paul’s experience of a Son-like faith. Slaves obeyed God because they had to; sons because they chose to. Slaves were kept in check by a law; sons walk in the Spirit. Personally I would rather take both broad interpretations than an either/or choice. This is Christwards and Sonlike faith, but it is not, I think, Christ’ faith instead of Paul’s faith.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2007/2/6 19:52Profile
Corneliu
Member



Joined: 2004/1/6
Posts: 61


 Re:

This is the way I understand this:

Interliniar "Christ I have been crucified with, yet I live no longer I, but lives in me Christ; but that which now I live in flesh, in faith I live, that of the Son of God, who loved me and gave up himself for me."

My read/understanding: no longer do I live, but Christ lives in me: but the life that I live in flesh now, is in/by faith, the life of the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me.

It's not my life (any longer), but His will and His life is lived in me(by faith).


_________________
Cornelius

 2007/2/6 20:17Profile









 Re:

KJV holds the revelational truth of Gal.2.20 by its use of the prep "of" that scholars strip away with their abstractions.

 2007/2/6 21:02
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

Thanks Philiologos and others.

So, is it acceptable to translate the verse as both faith in Christ and faith of Christ?

 2007/2/6 21:40Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
So, is it acceptable to translate the verse as both faith in Christ and faith of Christ?


Yes, I think it is but the 'faith' of Christ is not Christ's own faith imparted but the kind of 'faith' which Chirst had is repeated in me.

Remember the other phrase of Paul's "the faith of Abraham' and interpret each phrase in a similar way. Was Christ's own personal faith imparted to me? I don't think so.

Faith and repentance are only possible because God enables but each requires our personal engagement.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2007/2/7 2:24Profile





©2002-2020 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Affiliate Disclosure | Privacy Policy