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Discussion Forum : Scriptures and Doctrine : God & Time & Predestination advice please

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beenblake
Member



Joined: 2005/7/26
Posts: 524
Tennessee, USA

 Re:

Dear Jaysaved,

How can you say that God did not predestine anyone for Hell, but He also did not predestine everyone for Heaven?

Was it God's plan to send people to Heaven or Hell?

Do we have the freedom to choose God or not? You cannot say that God chose the elect, but did not choose the non-elect. That is non-sense.

Do we have a choice or not?

Blake


_________________
Blake Kidney

 2007/2/6 14:49Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131
Kentucky

 Re:

It all comes down to the depravity of man.

Because of Adam's transgression, all men are born spiritually dead. This cannot be blamed on God. It is God's sovereign will to choose certain people to be regenerated. His predestination is to conform certain people to the image of His Son. The others are simply left in their original state.

It is God's plan to make Jesus the firstborn among many brethren.

 2007/2/6 14:55Profile









 Re: God & Time & Predestination advice please

Quote:

strawrifle wrote:
Hi ive struggled for 25 years as a Christian,most of that time being back slidden..Due to this i'm pretty muddled! I seem to have a hard time nailing down facts,one second i'm believing it the next questioning..

The main problem i have is predestination..I can't handle the fact that God still create us,knowing who will not be saved..

My friend said this:God is outside of time and is the IAM..Hense what i did yesterday tomorrow or even next year God knows all at one time..That we think God see's things as a long list of events,but He is really Hit with all the information at once.. I don't think this is open theism,hes not saying God doesn't know the future, just that he knows it at exactly the same time as He knows the past..That scripture talks about knowing the future is God explaining infinite into finite..

what u think?

andy

[b][color=000099] I wrestled with the concept of predestination vs free will for years. Eventually came to the conclusion that BOTH are true.

God is so much greater than us, it makes sense if some of the things in the Bible [i]don't[/i] make sense, or seem paradoxical. His answer is often "All of the above", and more that our minds can't grasp!

The thing is not to worry about it too much, but seek the Lord for what He wants you to understand at this present time.

When I first came to Christ I was a student, and the Christian Union was 99% "Calvinist Reformed". This was probably in the Lord's mercy because I was so insecure that I needed the reassurance of the "once saved always saved" concept. I was terrified of displeasing the Lord in some way and losing my salvation!

Later on, when more established in faith and with a bit more knowledge of the Bible, I began to be able to face the possibility that someone who was genuinely born again could turn his back on God so completely that he would forfeit his salvation. It seems that King Saul did, for example, and probably some of the false teachers in Paul's day.

You can find scripture to justify both views. Which is why I eventually came to the conclusion that predestination and free will are BOTH true!

I do believe that it is GOD who keeps us once we are "saved". I also believe that anyone would have to "work very hard" indeed and be very determined and consistently wilfully disobedient to forfeit that salvation. You say that you were backslidden, so you will appreciate that :-)

You also said: [/color][/b]
Quote:
My friend said this:God is outside of time and is the IAM..Hense what i did yesterday tomorrow or even next year God knows all at one time..That we think God see's things as a long list of events,but He is really Hit with all the information at once.. I don't think this is open theism,hes not saying God doesn't know the future, just that he knows it at exactly the same time as He knows the past [/QUOTE]

[b][color=000099]I'm not sure what you mean by "open theism", others seem to have answered that anyway, but the concept of God being able to take in everything that happens all at the same time doesn't seem strange to me.

Even we humans can do that, with some things, to a limited extent. For example, we find it impossible to take in all of a book at once, but have to read one word at a time; but we CAN take in all of a picture, or a scent or a sound, such as an orchestra playing. We don't concentrate on one particular instrument and analyse the sound note by note, but take in the whole effect of all the instruments at once.

God can do something like that but infinitely more so. And presumably He invented time so is not subject to it as we are!

Hope that helps...


Blessings

jeannette[/color][/b]

 2007/2/6 15:31
strawrifle
Member



Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 139
uk

 Re:

Hi thks Jennette it doesn't seem strange to me neither.
Maybe its best to leave the word predestination of a thread title ;-)

To me His argument is very provoking it changes everything i struggle with..i couldnt shake the idea that i was just hard wired to do what God has seen..

andy


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andy

 2007/2/6 15:52Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

brethren
we have discussed this some time back on this same section of the forum. one could do a search on Predestination and Free Will and i'm sure it will pop up.

i found that we have free will but it is wrapt up in God's own sovereign will somehow. indeed the word does tell us to choose but also the word tells us that from before the setting of the foundations of th earth, we were chosen. we know also from John 6:65 that no man may come to the Son except the Father draw him...some may see this as a paradox or somehow mutually exclusive but there is no such thing in God's mind. The 2 work together for His own purposes for creation outlined in Ephesians 3.

our salvation is predestined, hence the term "elect" is used ot describe the Church. i know of no elected official who ever put himself in office without being chosen. the same holds true for our election in God. however when we realize this, we must then participate with His plan. i find that this knowledge rather than causing me to become complacent, causes me to seek God all the more.

as surely as some are predestined for heaven, some are predestined for hell. for God forknowledge is not simply knowing the future, it is in fact to make is so. God doesn't react to what we decide to do or make contingency plans, all things are carried out in accordance to what He has planned and ordained from before the setting of the foundations of the earth. Brethren we must realize that the final beneficiary of all creation is God. Men ending up in heaven or hell is no big deal, the issue as far as God is concerned is the showing of His manifold wisdom through the Church. Once we get our eyes of ourselves and see this and know it and live by it, we won't be disturbed at the fact that some are predestined for hell and others not. it doesn't bother me nor does it make God cruel in my eyes. As maker of all things He can do as He pleases and who are we to complain? what could we say to complain?


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2007/2/7 0:25Profile
strawrifle
Member



Joined: 2007/2/3
Posts: 139
uk

 Re:

Hi Ironman sorry if its been discussed before..I regretted mentioning predestination in the title,i was more interested in what people felt about my friends idea..But i got some great replies here and on another thread..


I was rather blessed when someone posted "Regarding God and time, I have found it very helpful to my prayer life, to know that I am interfacing with the I AM,that in eternity, it is always now"..

Apologies for posting whats been covered before..

God Bless
andy


_________________
andy

 2007/2/7 23:39Profile
IRONMAN
Member



Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS

 Re:

bro Andy
i wrote back about that other thread so that if you felt led to dig it up you could do so and glean from it whatever God has for you. you may find some good things there. for me it cleared everything up. no need to apologize bro!

God bless


_________________
Farai Bamu

 2007/2/8 12:02Profile





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