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 after reading your post Paul

I come to realize that there will might never be any understanding between us.

You said "acting" is not a "calling". You are wrong. I am not an actor, I'm an artist.Not only I am I acting in a play, but I also wrote the play, and this was at the Command of the Lord, and you can doubt that, all you want, but on my knees, penniless, it was the Lord, Who told me "write the Daley play", and within this play is a very very coherent Gospel message, and we have been successful, Praise God....and He has given me the leading to write the next play on the saints who were conductors on the Underground Railroad, both black and white, to underline the message that His is a ministry of reconciliation, both between us and God, and between each other. The message of that play is that this nation has at its foundation a great sin, the sin, that one human can be the property of another human being, and I intend on highlighting and dramatizing the lives of these who felt the Calling of God to combat this sin, in a way that this is both riveting, entertaining, thought-provoking and educational, and at the Core of it all, God willing, will be Jesus and His ministry of reconciliation.

Now if that is fake to you, fine, its your opinion. If to be artist is a not a gift and a calling from God in your opinion, fine. But I do pray you someday realize that evangelism takes many forms, many different disciplines.

You might want to do this, rent a copy of "Master and Commander", than it in that way, two things will be served, it will either buttress your opinion, or maybe you might just "see" what I saw. Maybe. But either way, you dont have to respond to this post. I mean if you want the "last word", and tell me that to be an Christian artist is not a calling, thats fine.

But I know what Jesus has told me, for myself and for my ministry.

God bless you.

neil

 2007/2/6 0:02
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re: after reading your post Paul

Quote:
Neil, "acting" is not a calling. And neither is my secular job, funeral directing. Not in the biblical sense anyhow. There are unsaved men and women who are much better at our professions than we are. Evangelism and pastoring are examples of callings.



In all fairness to Neil here, I think it is worth noting that while writing and directing a play has some professional aspects, it is much more personal and talent specific to describe it as only a profession. For instance those who are familiar with JS Bach's music realize he was both a professional employee of the church for his time but also an artist for all times.

I'm not wanting to over-romanticize the artist here, but what Neil has accomplished in Chicago is not something you can learn at a trade school or college. Creating something from ex-nihlo that is coherent and meaningful, is a vein-draining process that draws from everything the writer has lived through which in Neil's case will include his new life in Christ. I believe him when he says the Lord has graced him to write his play. Knowing how preoccupied Neil is with the things of Lord, as many of us are, I do not believe he could've committed himself to the ardous task of writing, producing, and persevering under uncertain financial and public pressures unless he felt the Lord's blessing on it.

I would also add that in all likelyhood, we can agree that being a funeral director can indeed be a calling...or at least the platform for one. It may not recieve the recognition as such from all your fellow brothers and sisters, but if we are in God's will, if we are obedient, then what we are doing must be part of His calling. In fact, it is my experience, that doing the secular job, the 'unspiritual' stuff, as unto the Lord is where we know with more centainty we have been sanctified in our hearts.

Not wanting at all to be abrasive here at all, and certainly not partisan between brothers! (Neil, inspite of my emphathy I have to admit I share Paul's surprise at the strength of your offense at him...in the sharp manner it was expressed.) Still I'm not trying to address the overall discussion about movies or Russell Crowe...only this one small point in regards to understanding the artistic or creative endeavor in man. (I thank God that man was created for more then function and utility...we are small reflections and expressions of God's astonishing creative nature!) I remember Paul, that you are familiar with Bach and his music and I felt that maybe this understanding could help explain Neil's taking exception to your comments.

Blessings brothers,

MC


_________________
Mike Compton

 2007/2/6 8:28Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Things not stated need not be inferred.

Quote:
Not wanting at all to be abrasive here at all, and certainly not partisan between brothers! (Neil, inspite of my emphathy I have to admit I share Paul's surprise at the strength of your offense at him...in the sharp manner it was expressed.) Still I'm not trying to address the overall discussion about movies or Russell Crowe...only this one small point in regards to understanding the artistic or creative endeavor in man. (I thank God that man was created for more then function and utility...we are small reflections and expressions of God's astonishing creative nature!) I remember Paul, that you are familiar with Bach and his music and I felt that maybe this understanding could help explain Neil's taking exception to your comments.



Thank you MC. Well said and well done. The things that can get under our skin sometimes are telling, that set us off, a small comment and we can begin to pour all kinds of personal meaning and assumptions into them. One thing when we are wrestling with scripture and trying to derive the meaning out of it and quite another when we want to start making character assumptions about each other, [i]these things ought not to be[/i].

We can either fight for true unity of understanding or go off and separate ourselves into camps and affiliations of those that only find agreement with our assumptions and personal preferences. It can be both the beauty and the beast of this forum, if we will but look at the things exposed by all this and deal with those things.




_________________
Mike Balog

 2007/2/6 10:00Profile









 Re: Things not stated need not be inferred.

... never a dull a moment around here!

8-)

Krispy

 2007/2/6 10:32
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re: My thoughts

Wonderful post, Mike. I find your posts full of eloquence and thought. Let me try to state my case here as lucidly as I can, seeing we have dove into yet deeper waters.

I carry a distinction between "talent" and "calling", as I make distinctions between "spirit" and "soul." A vocation, I feel, is not necessarily a calling - even if the vocation in question is built upon a measure of artistic merit. A wonderful case in point is J.S. Bach. Essentially, Bach considered himself a craftsman, an industious [i]cappellmeister[/i] doing his utmost job for the glory of God and the edification of man. It just so happened he was a transcendental genius in his craft. This, still, in my view, is not a calling. Bach did not preach the gospel through his works. Many of his greatest concertos and keyboard works were written in honor of noblemen and regal occasions. Bach had an extraordinary talent, a supreme mastery and all-surpassing gift to create incredible music that is able to penetrate the soul and evoke profound emotions and tears. Rembrant had it too. I've stood before a genuine Rembrandt at a museum in Russia and burst into tears. It wasn't a painting of Christ crucified; it was just a painting of a young girl sitting down. A mysterious soulful power diffuses through the works of men gifted with such transcendental artistic abilities - but I winder if these gifts and talents are in the same category as "callings" in the Biblical sense.

Billy Sunday was an extraordinary baseball player; was baseball his calling? No, I propose baseball was his great talent, his gifted and physical vocation through which God "called" him out to preach the gospel. If you were to ask Bach about his calling, he would probably be confused. "Am I a clergyman? My job is to compose music for St. Thomas' church and train the schoolboys in the ways of good, harmonious music."

We need to be careful, I think, when we throw around the terms, "I have been [i]called[/i] by God to do such-and-such" or "My [i]calling[/i] by God is (fill in the blank for any passion you've chose to do in life)." Having amazing abilities to stir emotions and bring tears does not automatically mean God has called you to do it - [i]even if you do it in the name of Jesus[/i]. This is a hard pill to swallow for some people! I'm sure Neil has written a fabulous play. And he believes God "told" him to write it, and inspired him, and gave him the money to do it, and made it popular, and people cried when they saw it, etc. All this may be. And I don't know anyhting about Neil, or his play, or his relationship with God. I am not contesting him; I would, however, ask him what I would ask anyone who claims to have "heard from God" and been given special provision to execute a task that really has no historical corollary to what true Biblical and Apostolic "callings" usually entail:

"How do you know it was God that told you? And how do you know you are not merely flexing your artistic muse given by God (a muse given not only to believers, but to the unsaved as well) to do a soul-inspired work [i]in his Name[/i]?"

I think a good way to determine whether or not a project is of God is this: Does it provoke others to absolute surrender and perfection in abandonment to God? Does it promote a lifestyle of holiness and self-denial in Jesus Christ? If not, I am bold to say you haven't heard from God no matter how ardently you say you have. Your work is a product of the soul - and it may be a magnificently evocative work indeed - but it is not of God, the true Holy God of the Bible. God can use it - and will, most likely - but it is only a product of human passion regardless of how many "visions" you say you've had or tears shed in prayer or how many times Jesus or God is referenced in the work. The "coherent" gospel message being projected in your work is also open to subjectivity - what is your gospel? These are all fair questions, I feel. God blesses the things we choose. Case in point is King Saul, who was chosen by the people, and God had Samuel anoint him. Analogically, God may desire one path for us, but we choose another, pray for blessing and God gives increase. How do you know your project is not a soulish King Saul to ornament your own kingdom of self-will? I say this with all humility, but I think so many of the ministries and projects and outreaches we pray for and erect in the Name of God are [i]not[/i] as God-authentic (that is, having their original genesis in God's will) as we suppose they are.

Brother Paul


_________________
Paul Frederick West

 2007/2/6 21:56Profile
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Hi Paul,

Thank you for the warm response.

I can agree with your perspective for the most part. I wouldn't want to strain the heart of the word 'calling' to make it mean whatever we fancy.

Your point is well taken...that we should never spiritualize or gloryify human endeavors as if these activities are callings in and of themselves. Paul's example of tent-making shows a clear example of the dichotomy you are pointing out that exists between vocation and calling.

Yet I am still opposed to thinking that a job is that something we do when were are not doing our calling.

To put all the cards out on the table, let me share that I work with a group of Christian men in a commercial illustration studio. As a vocation we market services, pay taxes and take home some provision for the family. Yet each of us recognize that God has placed us where we are...we rejoice that his hand is on our effort and duties. And through his grace we fiind weekly opportunities to use our secular platform to witness to the various creative professionals we do business with, both in deed and in word.

So while I would agree with you that illustrating a book or a food packaging label is not a spiritual calling in of itself...the manner in which we do these things has indeed become our calling. That is to say...as you readily recognize...not all ministry needs to take place 'in the ministry.'

The consecration of our 'industry' is not an after thought to us. In fact, it effects not only our attitude to the clients we interact with, but also our attitudes towards one another including the touchy subject of money. (Even most Christians can't believe how we've set up the pay structure here...although we find that unity and cooperation is much preferred, even on a practical level, to competitive striving.)

Now I appreciate the clarity of terminology you are holding to. I am only pointing that a calling, still properly defined and understood, may fit into many vessels which can be brought into many situations, and manifest in many environments. If one moment we are serving a client's needs, and another we are stealing an opportunity to share Jesus with them...the contrast between calling and vocation becomes harder to work out because each one touches the other.

One last note that might be of interest to you...

Quote:
If you were to ask Bach about his calling, he would probably be confused. "Am I a clergyman? My job is to compose music for St. Thomas' church and train the schoolboys in the ways of good, harmonious music."



Certainly Bach was a highly discipline technician who could write music with a professional almost clinical science. Yet, I would like to challenge your picture of him downplaying his own spiritual purpose in his work. I believe he did indeed intend to convey the Gospel in some of his music. I think you will find this book,[url=http://www.amazon.com/Analyzing-Bach-Cantatas-Eric-Chafe/dp/0195161823/ref=ed_oe_p/002-5415958-1454438]Analyzing Bach's Cantatas[/url] very intriguing. The author, Eric Chafe, presents a fairly technical case that Bach was not only a master craftsman concerned with counterpoint and modality for music's sake, but infused much of his church music with deep theological statement....not superficially in the lyrics but symbolically and allegorically in the structure of the music itself. In other words, Bach was capabale of such multi-dimensional thinking that he was writing music not only with horizontal and vertical music considerations, but more importantly infusing his art with deliberate illustrations of theological concepts...some of which are much better illustrated in music then in word. For instance, how do you convey the plausibility of three indepedent persons in one? With counterpoint of three intertwining melodies each moving in opposing directions and yet all in agreement lyrically. There are many better examples then this in the book, showing that Bach was not just expresssing his musical powers, but on a deeper level, he was truly worshipping...both cognitively as well as emotionally. (Although the secular author might put it "He was deliberately expressing Lutheran Theological ideas in the composition of the music itself.")

In this sense Bach was sincere when he signed his vocational work with the famous signature statement, "For the Glory of God." I believe that all of us can sign our work in some way with a similar signature...if not as visibly as Bach did.

Oh well...enough shop talk. Not wanting to split hairs with you here brother. Just a little harmonious counterpoint beneath your melody. ;-)

Thanks so much for the keen dialogue. It's a pleasure.

Blessings,

MC


_________________
Mike Compton

 2007/2/6 23:24Profile
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:

Thank you for the gracious response, Mike.

Quote:
I wouldn't want to strain the heart of the word 'calling' to make it mean whatever we fancy.



Duly noted, brother.

I suppose I've heard the word "calling" used by so many unregenerate men and women that it has really lost its shape and become a coloquialism for mere "talent" or "passion." I've just heard the word applied so much in the secular and art word. Mel Gibson has a calling. Joan of Arc had a calling. Rev. Jesse Jackson has a calling. It's gotten so that anyone who can do something well has been [i]called[/i] and indued by God whether it promotes the true gospel or not. And I suppose this loose term has carried over to Christianity. I am predisposed to think of the circuit rides of Wesley's day who experienced [i]the call of God[/i] and left their blacksmith and barrelmaking jobs to preach the living gospel. This is what comes to mind when I think of the [i]call[/i].

Here's something interesting for you: You speak of religious symbolism being found in Bach's works. Did you know that the number 3 "Trinity" element is found even in the most esoteric of his compositions? I don't know how familiar you are with his ouevre, but the Goldberg Variations (a theme with 30 variations written as a lulabye for a nobleman who suffered from insomnia) has been dissected and broken into 10 groups of 3 variations, with each subset consisting of a canon piece, a miscellaneous movement, and a virtuostic arabesque. I've listened to the work many times, and have only recently discovered this. The gospel narrative in triptych form has also been discovered in the six solo violin sonatas and partitas. It's astounding when you realize that Bach was able to infuse these cryptic yet idiomatic symbolisms even in his solo-stringed instrumental music!

Anyhow, I won't go on. It's getting late here. Thank you for this discussion!

Brother Paul :-)


_________________
Paul Frederick West

 2007/2/7 0:24Profile
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Hi Paul,

Quote:
I am predisposed to think of the circuit rides of Wesley's day who experienced the call of God and left their blacksmith and barrelmaking jobs to preach the living gospel. This is what comes to mind when I think of the call.



Well that is wonderful. I glady defer to these better examples of the call...such shining historic testimonies are in a class by themselves and bring me great hope that we could see these things again.

Bless you for walking a little down the road with me Paul.

MC

BTW, that is very interesting about Bach. I didn't know those things at all. I'll be listening to my copy of the solo violin sonatas and partitas tonight.


_________________
Mike Compton

 2007/2/7 0:54Profile
PaulWest
Member



Joined: 2006/6/28
Posts: 3405
Dallas, Texas

 Re:Profession versus Calling

Good morning Mike,

While driving my car to San Antonio this morning, I began musing over word origins - and in particular, the words "vocation" and "profession." I saw that in "vocation" the root is the same that is in words like "invoke" or "provoke", which is [i]vox[/i], or voice. A call. A witch is able to [i]invoke[/i] spirits, that is, the spirits are [i]called[/i] or summoned by a power not within them. An extraneous behesting is involved. For the word "profession", however, I saw that this comes from [i]within[/i] the professor. A profession of faith. I began to entertain the thought that a profession is intrinsically self-chosen, calculated and deliberate whereas a vocation is a an innerly-perceivable invasion from an outside entity.

I also realized I had been using "vocation" and "profession" interchangably, when in fact, they seem to be worlds apart! I think there are multitudes of people in professions which they consider to be vocations. Especially if they are visionaries! I remember when I played classical guitar - everyone who heard me said it was my calling. I suppose they thought I played very well! I played Bach fugues and transposed his keyboard works and even played in small string ensembles when I lived in Boston and New York. But, alas, it took many years to ascertain that my guitar playing wasn't, in fact, the "calling" God had placed on my life, but more of a talent I had diligently cultivated and decided - for lack of a better avenue in life - to persue as a means of financial provision and artistic fulfillment!
I see now in retrospect how vain it all was. Now, I play guitar in our church and give God glory through my gift, but I do not consider guitar-playing my "calling" per se (though I do acknowledge it as a facet of ministy).

I remember a few years back I preached a message to a college crowd that caused a bit of a stir. In the message, I proposed that many of the Christian students in attendance may in fact be [i]out[/i] of the will of God and persuing a self-chosen profession rather than fulfilling the original "calling" placed upon their life. That somewhere, somehow, a diversion had taken place. I only invited a consideration of this possibility, but the effect was one negativity and indignance. How dare I hint that they may be out of step with God! Many just "knew" God had called them to be accountants and respiratory therapists and microbiologists! How did they know this? Well, they "felt" the calling, prayed, and God gave them a release. Leonard Ravenhill said that the hardest thing for a young person to do in life is to discover the perfect will of God. How difficult indeed this is! Who can tach us this? What textbook or Bible study or seminary can teach us to hear the will of God and differentiate between soul and spirit, the divine purpose of God and the soulish aspirations of man? Philanthropical endeavors in the name of Jesus Christ do not guarantee a specific ministry is of God's original calling.

I'll be back, Mike! Let me know your thoughts. I'll be pondering the "calling" versus the "profession" all day most likely. Perhaps we should start a new thread? Ah, there is much we can learn and glean from (myself first and foremost) if we are lead by the Spirit in this topic of study and thought!

Blessings of Christ on you,

Brother Paul


_________________
Paul Frederick West

 2007/2/7 9:18Profile









 Re: Should Christians Watch Hollywood Movies

Mike, Paul and all,

The word 'calling' has been batting around in my mind since Paul first disputed with Neil that his work is his calling (at this time), and I would like to share some scripture.

But first, let me say, Paul, that if you had read Neil's progress over the last eighteen months, as he has shared it periodically, you would not be asking if he was sure it was God who spoke to him. Also, you would know that he had completely surrendered acting as a means of earning his living, until the Lord gave him that word to write the play. And, still, he was not sure that he would act in it, even though he was fitted for the task in every way.... until God told him to. Or, he would not be making the claims he does. He would be accepting his fate as an ex-actor / playwright, and doing the thing God had given in their place.


MC said

Quote:
if we are in God's will, if we are obedient, then what we are doing must be part of His calling.

PaulWest said
Quote:
While driving my car to San Antonio this morning, I began musing over word origins - and in particular...

Praise the Lord! I'm sure we are all being knitted together in the process of considering these matters before God.

Behold, how good and how pleasant [it is]
For brethren to dwell together in unity!
[It is] like the precious oil upon the head,
Running down on the beard,
The beard of Aaron,
Running down on the edge of his garments.
[It is] like the dew of Hermon,
Descending upon the mountains of Zion;
For there the LORD commanded the blessing --
Life forevermore. (Ps 133, NKJV)


The meditation which I myself was pursuing, is on the word 'calling' itself, as found in 1 Corinthians 1.

The first 'calling', v 1, is Paul laying claim to his apostleship, which Tyndale translates as 'vocation'.

Then, there is the 'calling' to be saints - set apart v 2 - which ties in with 'called' out of the world, v 26, not many mighty (etc).

Lastly, there is what we are called into, v 9, the fellowship of His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

This is where [i]we[/i] all [u]are[/u]. Not everyone is called in the Eph 4 meaning, as a life gifted to the church itself, but, woebetide any of us who think that God's call on our life is less, or 'unspiritual', as MC put it, simply because it does not fall into a recognisable scriptural category.

Even our spiritual gifts are only part of who we are in God.....

My computer time is closing.... must go.

 2007/2/7 16:51





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