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Joined: 2004/3/24
Posts: 1374


Bro Bartle you wrote;
"God does not go BACK on His covenants, He Himself said they are "irrevocable"

--- See this is what i believe too, that's why i'm pro Israel, and by association then Pro-Zionist ...

One of the things that wipes me out is hoe everytime God steps into human existence with a promise, blessing or curse, it alters the course of human history, in ways we can't see until after it happens ...

[b]Gen. 3[/b] - WHAM! ... History altered ...

[b]Gen. 6[/b] - WHAM! ... History altered ...

[b]Gen. 9[/b] - WHAM! ... History altered ...

[24] And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.
[25] And he said (i believe under God's authority and inspiration), Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.
[26] And he said, Blessed be the LORD God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.
[27] God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.

Someone said on a thread awhile back that something like this happened so long ago that it can't still be having an effect of us today ... i don't believe that, and in attempts of exploring it posted these threads ...

[b]Why are the Jews (Shem) Hated by so many Europeans & Russians (Japheth)? ...[/b]

i think Ham's run in with his dad's curse produced bad feelings between Ham's and Shem's line, to the point that by the time it got to Nimrod (Ham's grandson) he was the first in attepts of "making a Shem (name) of their own, and he is stated to be first in oppostion to God ... i also find it suspect that Ham's descendants wound up on a continent cut off on three sides by water from the rest of the then known world, all to themselves, later to be deemed the "dregs of mankind" by the rest of humanity, to the point that they'd become just another commodity, from their resources rich land ...

i also think that Japheth's blessing of enlargement and prospering is in some ways also a curse because it seems that the clash between what Shem's God then, and God's Christ now requires, and what enlargement and prospering requires, puts them at odds within themselves spiritually ... Which i questioned in this thread ...

[b]CHRISTIANITY: Abused for Power, Personal Purpose & Prosperity ...[/b]

it never ceases to amaze me that it was only the sons of Japheth (like Marco Polo) who went first hiking all over the known world in search of wealth, and then later how they seemed to be the only people to get in little wooden ships, and sail across unknown waters that they believed if you reached the edge of you'd fall off - yet they went any way ... What's the phrase that you hear in so many old English novel, "I'm off to seek my fortune", while it seems that folk in other far reaches of the globe, not being ocean venturing travellers, sat waiting to be discovered, and colonized, and sometimes made exstinct ...

Bro Bartle you wrote;
"and let me, as a Jew, saved by Jesus Messiah say this in the leading of the Holy Spirit, if there has been one thing, that has kept my people, the Jews from Messiah thruout the centuries from the time of His Crucifixtion, it has been, the church, lower case "c" church and it's believers who have persecuted and murdered Jews in the name of christ, Crusaders sporting crosses on their armor murdering Jews, forced conversions, inquisitions, burning synagogues, nazi's who said you killed our god, now we're going to kill you. That's the truth, face it."

--- [color=CC0000]Bro Neil, i sure hope you won't be mad at me[/color] but to me the reasons you gave here are again outward reasons, the visible, tangible things we can grasp, and blame, and not the invisible ones ... i certainly think satan was/is behind such atrocities, but the real reason why i believe the majority of Jews do not accept Christ has more do to Romans 11 than these subsequent histories, and that you and i are to be more focused in our shared, neither Jew nor gentile, brotherhood of Paul's speaking here ...

[2] Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
[3] Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:
[4] According as [b]he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
[5] Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will ...[/b]

i can understand how you may not be able to shed what has, and still is happening to unsaved Jews today, as i can with my fellow unsaved Af/Am's ... There's more attached in your case, than in my own ...
But Rom. 11 talks about the distinction between the Olive Tree (Israel), and we that are grafted in (Church) ... Bro Neil [color=CC0000]i think you're identifying more with the tree (Israel), and not the graft (the Church which you are a part of)[/color] ... i'll say no more on this, other than i love you in our Lord, and pray He make plain to you what needs to be made plain ...

Finally on the "who killed Christ issue" ... i've heard some say the Jews did, the Romans did, and that all we sinners did, but i think that's all wrong ... i think God the Father, on our behalf, killed Christ because the scripture says ...

[b]John 3[/b]:[16] [b]For God so loved the world, that he gave[/b] his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

[b]John 19[/b]:[10] Then saith Pilate unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? knowest thou not that I have power to crucify thee, and have power to release thee?
[11] Jesus answered, [b]Thou couldest have no power at all against me, except it were given thee from above:[/b] therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath the greater sin.

Those that delivered may have had greater sin, but not the power to kill Christ ...

[b]1 Pet. 1[/b]:[19] But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
[20] Who verily was [b]foreordained before the foundation of the world[/b], but was manifest in these last times for you,

[b]Rev.13[/b]:[8] And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb [b]slain from the foundation of the world.[/b]

No man has the power to slay anyone before they were even created ...

Blessings in Christ Jesus ...

 2007/2/2 16:02Profile

 Re: The End of England

philologos wrote

The 'witness of the Spirit' bears witness with our spirits that we are children of God. [b]Especially in charismatic circles there is a tendency to press-gang this 'witness' into all kinds of other roles.[/b]

Dear Ron,

This leads to more questions, for me then.

Here are two examples from scripture, to which I would attribute - perhaps by an [i]incorrect[/i]use of 'the witness of the Spirit' - the term.

How would you explain in different words, how these men knew this situation was from God, and in their actions, obeyed Him?

Acts 9:11
And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth...

Acts 10:19
While Peter thought on the vision, the Spirit said unto him, Behold, three men seek thee...

Are you saying that once a person knows they have been born of God, they don't need to go on mentioning His speaking to them - what He said and how / why they attribute their actions to this direction (from Him)?

Or, if a person is [i]sure[/i], why would they [u]not[/u] say?

I look forward to understanding better, how scripture guides us in this matter.

 2007/2/3 11:48

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