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philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re: hear me clear.

Quote:
by bartle on 2007/2/1 22:13:01
There are some in the church, or on this forum who say that Israel is not ordained of God, nor blessed of God, that the modern state of Israel is just some creation of the UN, something that is man made, to which I say in the Lord, you are wrong.


How do you define 'in the Lord' and how do you distinguish this from godly men and women (you can exclude me if you wish!) who say 'you are wrong'?

You are in danger of making an interpretation the criteria for being a Christian.

I think when you say 'in the Lord' in this context you simply mean you believe it passionately. I do not say 'you are wrong', passionately, only that I am not convinced that you are right.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2007/2/2 6:16Profile
Revolution34
Member



Joined: 2007/1/23
Posts: 14
Cardiff, South Wales

 Re:

Britian not England alone is in a state of moral and spiritual decline. The state of this country should grieve any true brit the problem is that we look at the decline and shake our heads in sadness mutter a few words on our need for revival, we see a bit of fluff, noise and exitement and tell ourselves it's coming and pull the covers over our heads! Let me tell you we cant wait for the young people, or the old people at that, God is waiting for us to get on knees and pray in revival. Revival praying is costly and inconvenient to the flesh, we need to consider whether God has allowed these declines in our generation, the rot is deep and the pungent stench of sin is neusating, maybe God is saying i want you to see what i see and smell what i smell, i want my church to be disturbed out of her bed and onto her knees. There is a trend to cry out to God when the pressure of hositlity is hot and then to subside as soon as a knew fad comes along or a religous gimmick that promises a sensational answer. A new Hollywood christian film becomes the great revival hope, or a new program with clever apologetic arguments is adpoted in our churches to gently appeal to the wicked atheist. My prayer for Britian is that the antichristian hositility would bend us and cause us to cry out to God for mercy, like the hebrews living in slavery for four hundred years under Eygptian bondage, tolerating it for that long before they had the sense to start to call on God! i have always wondered why it took them so long to start getting serious about delieverance maybe they only longed for their privelages again acceptence in society, the honour they held under Josephs rule and to keep up with the Jones'. As long as the churches in Britian are focused on political, moral and social acceptance we will not see revival. God continue the decline until we have the sense to get serious about revival! as long as we kid ourselves that revival is coming, that revival is here we will never see it. The church of Christ was birthed to dominate society, to turn the world upside down, if the church wont seek to rise to its true position than God will allow the world to turn the church upside down.

 2007/2/2 6:34Profile
enid
Member



Joined: 2006/5/22
Posts: 2674
Nottingham, England

 Re:

Revolution34

Thank you for your concern about revival.

I'm gripped by these two scriptures in the Psalms.

Psalm 119v126, 'It is time for You to act, O Lord, for they have regarded Your law as void'.

Psalm 119v136, 'Rivers of water run down from my eyes, because men do not keep Your law'.

Maybe, God wants to see the rivers of waters run down from our eys, before He will act as we want to see Him do.

Also, we have to ask, what is revival?

I don't doubt if you were to ask 10 different people you would get 10 different answers.

Some, when speaking about revival, are referring to a spiritual awakening, in which masses of sinners get saved.

Others, to a dead church being revived in the things of God, and getting back to scripture.

Others will have yet another interpretation.

However, whatever your preference, we do need God's Holy Spirit to move.

Ask, seek, knock, Matt 7v7.

God bless.

 2007/2/2 7:08Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
by Revolution34 on 2007/2/2 11:34:22
The church of Christ was birthed to dominate society, to turn the world upside down


The church of Jesus Christ was birthed to be trodden on by society and by its testimony to become an overwhelming minority; world domination was never part of its commission.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2007/2/2 7:28Profile









 Re: The End of England

Quote:
I think when you say 'in the Lord' in this context you simply mean you believe it passionately. I do not say 'you are wrong', passionately, only that I am not convinced that you are right.

Dear Ron,

To me, the point you are making to Neil here, is of much less matter to you, in fact, than it may be to Neil.

In it, I see the same point you made in the To all the Prophets thread, when you said
Quote:
The only comment that we can make is 'I have a witness' or 'I don't have a witness'.

I know I have taken this out of the context in which you wrote it, but, it declares your personal attitude to 'a witness'. And all I want to say is, that this - 'a witness' - is all some of us have to go on, with regard to the whole of our understanding, operation of our gifts, and in exercising faith towards obeying God's leadership of our lives. Of course, this is not to say we don't read scripture, seek and wait for understanding, but tho the Lord may use this to confirm His other words to us, the two might not neatly fit over each other like a tracing over the original words.

By implication, you are suggesting that the witness of the Spirit (on this kind of topic) is given to all in the same measure, when clearly, it is not.... and not even to all the elders in the same church. Or else, there would be no diversity, no liberty to move in God, independently of [i]permission[/i] from another human being. Plainly, this is not required. There is an expectation that there will be unity where it [u]really matters[/u], because we all drink into the same Spirit.

One believer really only needs to know for themselves whether they are being obedient to what God has shown them - trusting Him to understand their confusion if they have any, and to lead them out of it, if it matters that they have intellectual clarity as well as practical direction.

Spitfire has just posted in the Prophets thread, such a heartfelt plea for openness and freedom to speak what God has shown her - for anyone who claims to have heard from God - that it echoes my own long uphill climb to reclaim my assurance of knowing when and what God had shown me, after having had much 'white noise' and spiritual interference waves broadcast in my direction over many years.

I am wondering whether it really is possible to protect people from the white noise, the interference and the confusion which comes the way of anyone who really desires to please God, who starts off with a simple [i]knowing God[/i]

Thus, even if you remain unconvinced that Neil is right because you don't have what you consider a convincing 'witness', it really would matter only if God was leading you in such a way that you [i]need[/i] a clearer witness to proceed with obeying God's call on [i]your[/i] life.... and, would He not give it in those circumstances? I believe He would.


Now, one thing I have seen recently, is just how much 'politics' there is in the Old Testament, in varying shades of prominence. God is not unaware. He uses [i]all[/i] things, as they have been created for His good pleasure. The present nation state of Israel [i]must[/i] fall into that category of playing a part in His plans for His people, whether they know Him yet, or not, and however they know Him. I believe we have to keep trusting that He is working out His will for all of us who know Him, and obey Him, and sometimes this will lead some of us out on a limb where we would much rather not be, or a limb over which we have no personal control.

 2007/2/2 7:41
Vader
Member



Joined: 2007/1/30
Posts: 16


 Re:

Has anyone seen the news today about england. If not check out Joel Rosenburgs blog very alarming

 2007/2/2 7:59Profile
enid
Member



Joined: 2006/5/22
Posts: 2674
Nottingham, England

 Re:

Vader,
Do you have the details for the blog, or what is the news?

Thanks.

 2007/2/2 9:34Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

Quote:
And all I want to say is, that this - 'a witness' - is all some of us have to go on, with regard to the whole of our understanding, operation of our gifts, and in exercising faith towards obeying God's leadership of our lives.


The 'witness of the Spirit' bears witness with our spirits that we are children of God. Especially in charismatic circles there is a tendency to press-gang this 'witness' into all kinds of other roles.

I have heard people say they knew they were in the genuine tomb because of the witness of the Spirit. There are people on this site who turn their back on scriptural revelation in preference to the 'witness of the Spirit'; we have one regular contributor who takes this stance.

Usually when people say 'I have the witness of the Spirit' they mean 'I agree' and when they say 'I don't have the witness of the Spirit' they mean 'I don't agree'.

It does not matter how strong a persons witness is the bottom line is still... [color=0000ff]“To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.” (Is 8:20 NKJV)[/color]

Quote:
One believer really only needs to know for themselves whether they are being obedient to what God has shown them - trusting Him to understand their confusion if they have any, and to lead them out of it, if it matters that they have intellectual clarity as well as practical direction.


This is perfectly acceptable on the level of personal guidance but when it comes to being the ruling law of their hermeneutics they are in trouble.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2007/2/2 11:22Profile
Rahman
Member



Joined: 2004/3/24
Posts: 1374


 TRYING TO UNDERSTAND: HOW? ...


[b]Bro Ron some things you said may be helpful to my getting a better understanding of history ... i know this is long, and i don't expect you, or anyone else to read or react to any/or all of it ... It's just comments on what i wonder ...[/b]


[b]Bro Ron you wrote;
"Every empire travels the same path. They come, they flourish, they die. The Aztecs, the Maya, the Mongols, the Chinese, the Japanese, all these have come and gone without ever touching the 'Jews'. The nations you mention above did suffer the consequences of touching the people that was "the apple of God's eye" but if you read your Bible history you will know that they were raised up by God for specific purposes relating to that people and when they abused that purpose judgement fell on them."[/b]

--- Amen, but it's the so called Christian empires that historically, and sometimes presently, baffle me ... Heathen empires such as you mentioned, and European empires pre Christianity, i expect nothing of but the raging of heathens ... But after Christ, especially after the Protestant Reformation, now that's a different standard, and from viewing history (thru Christians eyes now) i see so much hypocrisy (tho with sprinklings of saints who stood up in protest) ... So ...

[color=CC0000]- Even if we don't make a correlation between any so called Christian peoples (nations) demise because of their mistreatment of the Jews, could we make it for their mistreatment of others, in the capacity that such Christian nations have done on their fellow man (in particular of other nationalities)? ...

- Could it be that when a people rise up, in nationhood and/or empire, claiming Christ and Christianity (like America now), when they subvert the purpose and pricipals of Christ to benefit of self, nation, empire, that God's judgement will fall on them? ...[/color]


[b]Bro Ron you wrote;
"I still find it surprising to see the kind of anger that my 'inability to see' brings upon my head, but I am learning to live with it."[/b]

--- As my grandson would say, "i feel you on this" ...


[b]Bro Ron you wrote;
"I am no more responsible for Britain's foreign policy than you are for America's slave history.'[/b]

--- Amen, bro Ron you're right, just like in America today white citizens are not responsible for our slave history ... But this question remains, "Are we still affected by such history, perhaps in sub-conscious ways we might not even be aware of" ... But we do agree that past British foreign policy, and the founding fathers of America foreign and domestic policies made them responsible? ... Blame and anger is not my agenda, but wonderment about ...

[color=CC0000]- How could such professedly Christian rulers, empires and people do such atrocities to others, Jews, Africans, colonized nations, in the name of Christ and Christianity? ...

- Was it that those folk back then were somehow more ignorant about the teachings of Christ, than we are today? ... [/color]

i know myself as a Christian, as i believe of you, wouldn't as a common man, or in any type position of power, be adapting Christ/Christianity to our own selfish earthly lusts (God forbid) ... We wouldn't be killing anyone in the name of Christ ... Or bearing false witness, especially to the murder of others ... Or be spreading and promoting death, destruction, and vile hatred at one person, or a group of folk, let alone enslaving others to our economic benefit ... And we certainly wouldn't go and exploit others for their resources, taking them by force ... They had to know it was wrong ... George Washington and Jefferson admitted that slavery was wrong and against God, but yet because of personal gain they persisted in it's practice ... They fled what they believed the tyranny of England, only to sacrifice Christ, and Christian principals to the building of new empire ... Yikes!

[color=CC0000]- Is this something that's historical, and subsequent leaders tho also claiming Christ and Christianity are born into, and therefore for sake of continued empire must make compromises to? ...[/color]

If so i thank God that He's not appointed me head over any nation, and i do pray hard for those He has, as i do for Pres. Bush ... i don't think i could live with having to juggle between faith and empire ---


[b]Bro Ron you wrote;
"I think your correlation is a false mapping of cause and effect. The sufferings suffered in various African nations during the last decades are horrendous and their nations are bruised beyond imagination but it has nothing to do with their foreign policy."[/b]

--- Perhaps not with THEIR foreign policy ...

[color=CC0000]- But what about the foriegn policies of AGAIN, we so called Christian nations? ...

- What would have been their lot if they'd not been colonized in the first place, taken over for selfish exploit to empirical wealth, and then eventually dropped like hot potatoes when demanding their autonomy? ...

- Would the Hutu's and the Tutsi's been better off had not America and the Soviets played them against one another, and now two people who used to intermarry now kill each other? ...

- How is it possible, that we so called Christian Western nations have so much still, and they so little? ...[/color]

In America we're always hearing about doing things in "our national interest" ... That is if it don't affect our national security, to blazes with it ... But we're supposed to be a Christian nation, if not that then a nation supposedly filled with Christians ...

[color=CC0000]- So then shouldn't we also have "a Christ interest"? ...

- Shouldn't we be motivated like Him to give without expectation of getting something back? ...

- There was a time when Americans (per capita) were charitably more giving than we are now, what's happened? ...[/color]

 2007/2/2 15:46Profile
Rahman
Member



Joined: 2004/3/24
Posts: 1374


 TRYING TO UNDERSTAND: HOW? ... cont'd



[b]Bro Ron you wrote;
"On the contrary I am and always have been pro-Israeli. I have never personally met a single instance of anti-semitism in my 65 years in the UK. In fact, as far as I know, I had never met a Jew until I was in my middle twenties. I don't deny that it exists but then I don't move in high circles."[/b]

--- Wow ... Never? ...

This made me think back to when i first encounterd Jews ... It was early in my life, like 5 or 6, because in black neighborhoods (pre 60's riots) Jews were the only ones who'd set up businesses there ... This was before manufacturing became a thing of the past in our inner cities, and the factories that employed us moved south ...

Anyhow i had good memories associated with them ... They'd give us candy free sometimes ... i'd notice that my dad and mom seemed to have a pretty good repoire with them in shopping ... They'd employ us ... They'd give credit, or let us pay on time, when nobody else would ... i never heard a bad word about them until after the 60's race riots, in which their businesses we're destroyed from our neighnorhoods never to return ... Now the old "hoods" look like war zones, and Korean's abound with "Stop & Go" shops that sell only Beer, Malt Liquor, cigarettes, and anything fried ...

After the riots such entities as the Black Panther Party came into play, radically reacting to racism against us by "the white man", but also spouting anti-semitic remarks about the Jew (promoted by the same "white-man" they were against) ... Satan is such a deciever ... But i really didn't get to first hand experience "anti-semetic", or "anti-Hamitic", sentiment until i left the insulation of my "hood" and went downtown to work amongst "whites" in my first architectural office ... Man was that an eye-opener ... Prior to this i used to think Jews were white, the whites i worked with soon made it very clear to me that they were'nt ... My Dad showed me from the scripture why ...

i still hear cracks about Jews ... One of the founders of my employment was Jewish (saved/died), and many of my fellow employees, especially the shop guys (blue collar), were always making some ugly remark ... In fact the young Brits that once ruled our company had some pretty nasty remarks about Jews (but then they had nothing good to say about anyone) ---


[b]Bro Ron you wrote;
"Wasn't it an American ambassador who said 'we don't have friends, only interests'? I find it difficult to be 'temperate' about governments of any kind. I obey them but distrust them. My reading of history has shown me too clearly the hypocrisy that drives national destinies. I hold no brief to defend the EU. When they asked me if I wanted to join, I said 'no' but they didn't listen."[/b]

--- i've already touched on the "interest" thing, and my reading of history reveals the same as yours ... What's past is past, but as i said, i still wonder how such Christ professing people did what they did ...

But now to the present ... i won't speak on what Britian should or should not do, that's not my burden ... My burden is America, and what we as supposedly a nation made up of primarily Christians should and should'nt do in the name of Christ, and Christianity ...

[b][color=CC0000]i'm one who still believes that this is a government "for and by the people", so i address this soley to American saints ...[/color][/b]

[color=CC0000]- If America is supposedly so full of Christians, then why have we become an increasingly corrupt society? ...

- Could it be that since we're supposed to me a majority that much of the corruption is being participated in, or at least allowed by our silence giving consent? ...[/color]

i know what the power of a people in determined unison can do, in the Af/Am case it can amend the contitution to de-instututionalize racial bigotry (and the majority of that thrust came out of the black church) ... That's why i believe that if Christian's voted our Christian conscious in the best interest of the cause of Christ, and what's spiritually better for our fellow man, we'd not have all of the crap that has passed legislatively in the past 50 years ... It's like all of a sudden so called Christian Evangelicals have been awakened to this, the problem being that we still got so many other elements of Christianity pulling in different directions in pursuit of more personal earthly payoffs we can't get a more unified consensus ...

One of the things that's been beneficial to my being black in America is that to not have initially been included, it made me a spectator of how American society acts, and reacts ... Americans, (many saints included unfortunately), as long as we feel our individual ability to pursue our own life, liberty and happiness is unobstructed, as long as the economy is doing ok, jobs are plentiful, stock market's rising, gas is cheap, credit is available, we can have the next biggest and best things, crime and people of low socio-economic level stay in their designated areas, etc., we could care less about anything else ... We don't care about war, unless it isn't good for the economy or there's a draft ... We don't care about other nations, or what they think of us, unless it effects our economy ... We don't really care about our own poor anymore, let alone the poor in all the rest of the world ... Even our major religious denoms, churches, have been bitten by the bug of greedy self agrandizing empire building ...

[b]THE ONLY TIME AMERICANS SIT UP AND TAKE NOTICE IS WHEN SOMEONE MOVES OUR COLLECTIVE CHEESE ... THEN YOU'LL GOT A MOVEMENT! [/b]

All this to say, unlike your experience bro Ron, in America, i believe if any major segment of our population gets to a point of where it's collectively had enough, government will listen, and react ... Although now i think if our government ever gets to a point of where it doesn't react to the will of the people, especially in anything that has to do with loss in economy, there will be blood running in the streets ---


[b]Bro Ron you wrote;
"However where Jews identify themselves with Zionism there will be the typical caution of the Brits. Islam and Zionism are both territorial ideologies; this will certainly make Brits uncomfortable. Jews, racially and religiously are not necessarily territorial."[/b]

--- All i can say is i live in a highly concentrated Jewish suburb, and i can count on one hand the Jews i've met who aren't pro Israel ... If that makes them Zionist, then they're territorial ... i read that this Zionist identification is a reason for the new ressurgence of Anti-Semitism in the world, and also anti-Americanism because we're so closely identified with them ... As a Christian, and an American, i'm glad to be a part of such a union ... God help the Jew, their damned by the world if they do or don't ... i truly feel that anything i'd ever have to negatively deal with being Hamitic, is far less sinister than what a Jew has to deal with ... i suppose to have God hang a sign around your neck as His chosen, is a sure way to have others to want to put their foot on your neck ... For the most part i get along fine with Jews, especially the old ones ... And when i see them (lots of yarmulkes in my area) i'm always reminded of our mutual spiritual history ---


[b]Bro Ron you wrote;
"The church of Jesus Christ was birthed to be trodden on by society and by its testimony to become an overwhelming minority; world domination was never part of its commission."[/b]

--- See, now what you said here is in unison with a way of thinking that i try my best to avoid ... i don't like questioning peoples salvation, i think to myself maybe it is possible to be saved and be that self deluded at the same time ... Then i think, nahhh, no way ... You know as bad as i think the crusades were, they were done under the Church of Rome and so i can comprehend why such a spiritually corrupt undertaking happened ... But i'm beginning to really wonder about the salvation of so many Protestants, especially those in any elitist positions, who historically engaged in such anti-Christian endeavors ...

[i][color=0000CC]Maybe i'm answering my own questions here ... Maybe Ravenhill was right, maybe only 5% of all professing Christians are truly saved, that "overwhelming minority" as you put it ... It certainly would account for how past, and present, professed Christians could/can do such things that are totally against Christ, Christianity and the Bible ... [/color][/i]

Blessings in Christ Jesus ---

 2007/2/2 15:47Profile





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