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Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924


bro Ron

Every empire travels the same path. They come, they flourish, they die. The Aztecs, the Maya, the Mongols, the Chinese, the Japanese, all these have come and gone without ever touching the 'Jews'. The nations you mention above did suffer the consequences of touching the people that was "the apple of God's eye" but if you read your Bible history you will know that they were raised up by God for specific purposes relating to that people and when they abused that purpose judgement fell on them.

this is true and i'm aware of that but i was talking specifically about those empires which did mistreat the Jews and God said He would and did abase them. indeed i'm aware that God raised them up for the purpose of punishing Israel and yet they somehow overstepped their bounds and had to be brought low.

It all comes down to whether or not you equate the Israeli nation state with 'the people of God'. I do not because I cannot interpret the scripture in that way. I am constantly urged to read Romans 9-11 by people who are frustrated with me and I would guess that I have read Romans as often as most of the people who advise me to do so. If I were to extract Romans 9-11 and treat it as a separate revelation I might well come to the conclusions that others have reached, but I read Romans 1-16 and I come to different conclusions. I hear a chorus running through the whole... there is no difference...

well i feel that the people there are Israelis (well most say they are Israelies rather than Israelites)not Israelites but the Israelites will come out from them. i agree in that there is no difference between Jew and gentile in Christ, but that to me refers to salvation and the requirements to get into heaven, neither people can enter His presence without first going by the cross. that being said, there are clearly some things which only the Jews can do on this side such as the rebuilding of the temple and the work which must be done there before Christ comes. The Revelation speaks of the sealing of the 144000 Jews which have a job to do which evidently the gentiles can't. so God still has a plan for Israel only which can't be fulfilled by gentiles although there is no difference between the 2. interesting how God works isn't it...

I never try to convince anyone that I am right in my interpretations and I never try to change anyone's mind. I simply say to so many who are utterly convinced 'I am not convinced'. I can choose not to say it and that would make life a little more peaceful, but if I am asked or someone shares something in a public community I will say what I think. Usually the form will be asking awkward questions rather than proposing a scheme of eschatology.

well we can agree to disagree on this and not throw rocks at one another which is always good :-P i'd like to hear some of your questions (if our Lord leads that is) since i brought up a more eschatological view of things.

Farai Bamu

 2007/2/1 13:28Profile

Joined: 2004/3/24
Posts: 1374


Man i'm as thick as a Micky D's milk shake ... Bro B i had no you were the old Neilgin ... Either way i'm glad you're still in fellowship with us ...

Anyhow ...

[b]Enid wrote;
"So where did all of that come from?"[/b]

[i]Let me say first that i'm using Jew and gentile descriptively, because in Christ we're all supposed to be one ... [/i]

[b]It all started like this;[/b]

[b]1[/b] - JGB321 wrote;
"When a nation deviates from the will and purpose of God, all out apostasy and wickedness will only increase and increase."

[i]i believe JGB321 wrote this from a strictly Gentile/Christian point of view, with not even a thought of what bro Neil introduced as the reason, or a part of the reason of the spiritual demise of Britain ...[/i]

[b]2[/b] - Bro Bartle then expressed his belief;
"ask yourself this question: what western english speaking nation has opposed the State of Israel more vociferously than the UK? ... and there your answer lays."

[i]i believe what bro bartle expressed he believes as both a Jew, and a Christian ... i didn't initially post to say whether he was right or wrong, but in attempts to get him to check his motivation behind what he said ... If it is stated as pure belief due to factual history that's one thing, but if it's stated in even the least bit of angered thought/reaction to past and/or present hurt due to persecution of Jews then that ain't of Christ, because He said we're to forgive, and to treat with kindness those that dispitefully use us... That's why i tried to give a paralelled testimony of what Christ has freed me from as an Af/Am ... When i state history now i state it for history's sake especially in wonderment of how folk who claim Christ did such atrocious things, and/or discussion and explanation of why people act/react as we do, but not in attempts to beat anyone over the head with it, and certainly not in angered reaction to a painful past as i once would ...[/i]

Then bro Ron replied ...

[b]3[/b] - "I am not sure what the question was but I strongly disagree with the answer. I am an Englishman but totally unpatriotic, so I write as a reader of history and of the Bible when I say this is a foolish and unscriptural attitude."

[i]As soon as i saw [b]the ignite word "foolish"[/b] in bro Ron's reply i knew the fireworks were about to fly ... When i worked for GE i took a management course (Transactional Analysis) with a special teaching on "How To Deal With Persecution Complexed Employees" ... Under the heading were these three catagories ...

- Jews (religious/racial)
- Negroes (racial)
- Women (gender)

In the course it taught that every person is made up of three people ...

- Child (emotionally reactive)
- Parent (disciplinary reactive)
- Adult (logically reactive)

Generally what happens in a combative exchange is that it's primarily engaged in between child types, or is initiated, or egged on by a parent type to a child type ... Call someone "foolish" (or any other percieved slight word) and unless the recipient is aware of TA, or more importantly as a Christian controlled by Holy Spirit, you're gonna get an heated exchange ... i often think of TA when i'm posting on SI, this with trying to submit to Holy Spirit's warning of "self" often keeps me from reacting as a child or parent type, or pulling someone elses child type by my coming at them like a parent ... i'm not perfect at it, but i am aware of it and try to be adult ...[/i]

[b]4[/b] - Then Jaysaved made his comments ...

[b]5[/b] - [b]Then bro Neil came back at Jaysaved re: Replacement Theology, and called bro Ron "a pendantic Englishman"[/b] ... And the rest is "fur-flying", "back-biting", "finger-pointing" history ...

[b][i]Let's face it saints, we ALL still got lots of nasty spots, wrinkles and blemishes, from our pasts, still in our psyches ... Ungodly things we've picked up personally, family traits, ethnically, culturally, nationally, etc ... Some of us may have to be freed from a feeling of inferiority, some of us from a feeling of superiority, some of us from being reactive to persecutions past and present, some of us for liking to push the "ON" buttons of the persecution complexed ... Some of us may be actually blind to our motives ... Some of us may pretent we're not aware of what we do ... God help us ALL to be rid of any past filth that hinders us from going forward in Him ...[/i][/b]

[13] ... but this one thing I do, [b]forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,[/b]
[14] I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

[8] Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: [b]because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.[/b]
[9] He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
[10] He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
[11] But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.

[1] And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
[2] [b]Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air,[/b] the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
[3] Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
[4] But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
[5] Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
[6] And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
[14] [b]For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
[15] Having abolished in his flesh the enmity,[/b] even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

[i]i know it may be hard ... i know we may not want to hear or accept it, but in Christ we're all supposed to be past any past things that separate us from being ONE in the Body ... These may be painful encounters, but they certainly bring to light some of the oughts we still have against one another ... In Christ we're not supposed to be separated as Jew and Gentile, black and white, or any other dastardly distiction satan uses to keep the world at each others throats ... We're supposed to be already seated in the heavenly vantage point of Christ, so that we can see such things as He sees them - from above it ALL ...

Holy Spirit can influence us all to adulthood (maturity) in Jesus if we'd only let Him ... All of us don't agree on a number of issues, perhaps some never to we stop seeing thru a glass darkly, but in the meanwhile if we come to such empasses, if we've given our viewpoint to the point of exhausting any further input, and/or we can't engage one another without spitting & hitting (child) or taking one another to the woodshed (parent), then perhaps the logically adult thing to do is to just STOP! ... i believe that's what i hear Holy Spirit saying to me about a number of topics, and it's what i intend to do ... [/i]

We may not have to agree with one another, but it pleases Christ that we love one another regardless ...

Blessings in our Lord Jesus Christ ... :-D

 2007/2/1 14:31Profile

Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1131


I want to address that charge of replacement theology. I simply stated that the promises made to Abraham were to him and his Seed. Galatians 3 tells us that the Seed is Christ.

Therefore the promises made to Abraham are to those who are in Christ (i.e., Christians.)

If this is replacement theology then it is Biblical.

 2007/2/1 14:48Profile

 Re: The End of England

Rahman, thank you. I've read a bit about TA and it is useful for understanding situations, even if it is not a godly solution.

The one thing which I come back to again and again is this question - which is not intended to be rhetorical....

Isn't Christ both the true olive tree and the true Vine, into which both believing Jews are grafted as much as believing Gentiles, acknowledging both Adam and Abraham?

Please, I'm not trying to detract from all the other points legitimately raised in the thread so far, but, in the light of Romans 9:4's assertion regarding 'Israelites' 'to whom pertains the [b]adoption[/b]', aren't all of us on a level since the cross?

Doesn't the true olive tree give forth the oil of healing, and the wine of cleansing?

Luke 10;29 ...
But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?

And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead. And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side. And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side. But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: [b]and when he saw him, he had compassion and went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine[/b], and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him. And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee. (KJV)

Neil, I acknowledge your genuine concerns about UK politics, and don't quote this (above) for any other reason than that this was Jesus' own example of when oil and wine might be needed.

Surely, many of us have had need of the oil and the wine, and will do, that we may be truly healed....

 2007/2/1 15:08

Joined: 2005/2/7
Posts: 33


have travelled all over this country preaching and I can share with the wider world, that there is no revival happening at present. If you think 60 churches coming together is something to get excited about, think again. If these churches are in the ecumenical movement (which is controlled by Rome) than you're being led away from the Truth and not nearer. When genuine revival is present, pubs, clubs, cinemas and other ungodly institutions shut down. If this is not happening in your town, or any town for that matter, than its not revival as we know it. (Check out George Whitefield’s accounts.) Until that happens, all you're seeing is cosmetic makeovers, and this is nothing to boast about.

You have made a number of grand assumptions about my previous posting.

1. I am NOT boasting as you say. I was sharing my current experiences which I believe is allowed on SI. What have any of us to boast about anyway?
2. I am NOT saying revival is happening. I have read about the revivals and know what true revival looks like. I said the young people have a heart cry for revival which is a much different thing.
3. The churches working together are not 'the ecumenical network controlled by Rome.' They are all like minded people mostly from the charismatic and evangelical churches and a few years ago working together looked impossible.

So, please ease up a little. Of course we are not experiencing a revival. But I don't believe we are as 'doomed' as some of the earlier posts said either. If we have even small signs of God still working in our lives then it's more than we had earlier...and I for one won't despise his encouragements...I won't join in and say that there is no hope for the people of this nation when God is paying time and attention, as a good Father, to make changes in lives both individually and corporately...however small these changes may look to you.

Of course everyone in every nation is longing for days of revival. But you cannot discredit God's work in the lives and hearts of individuals or groups of individuals just because it isn't a 'mass revival work'! It's like saying that nothing God is doing is worth anything or is valid except for his revival work!

ALL that God is and does is great. Even one drop of His mercy is more than we deserve and we ought to be a thankful people with anything He does in our lives whether He ever decides to send a revival to our nation or not!

 2007/2/1 16:35Profile

 hear me clear.

Right now, Israel is in a fight for its life, its very existance.

There are some in the church, or on this forum who say that Israel is not ordained of God, nor blessed of God, that the modern state of Israel is just some creation of the UN, something that is man made, to which I say in the Lord, you are wrong.

Furthermore, there are those who say that the Church has replaced Israel in Covenant promises, you are wrong. God's promises to Israel in the New Covenant outlined in Jeremiah's Book of Consolation chapters 30 to 33 were made to the Jews, and thru the atoning sacrifice of Messiah the Gentiles were grafted in to this New Covenant. God does not go BACK on His covenants, He Himself said they are "irrevocable". What kind of "god" would He be if He did go back on irrevocable Covenants? that would make Him a fork tongue god, perish the thought.

and let me, as a Jew, saved by Jesus Messiah say this in the leading of the Holy Spirit, if there has been one thing, that has kept my people, the Jews from Messiah thruout the centuries from the time of His Crucifixtion, it has has been, the church, lower case "c" church and it's believers who have persecuted and murdered Jews in the name of christ, Crusaders sporting crosses on their armor murdering Jews, forced conversions, inquisitions, burning synagogues, nazi's who said you killed our god, now we're going to kill you. That's the truth, face it.

Now the nation of Israel faces the sons of Ishmael, the muslims, the jihadists, who have made it their vow to kill every last Jew in Israel, however the means, hundreds of millions of them face off against the nation of Israel with its five million people.

The Messiah Jesus was born of a Jewish woman, the God,His Father, the Lord you pray to, His Name is Yahweh. Don't forget where you come from.

In the last days, He will bring the people back to the Land of Israel, and that is being done, how do think that five million have been able to face off against hundreds of millions burning to destroy the people of Israel?

by the "strength" of these mere five million?

By the strength of Yahweh.

I hear many in the church say how they love the Jewish people. Praise God for the heart that is true, but to others, they only love the Jewish people until they get one up in their face, and then you see how deep the "love" is.

 2007/2/1 17:13

 Re: hear me clear.

Amen, brother Neil. Amen.

[i]"I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy." Romans 11:11[/i]
It is my desire in some way to provoke them to jealousy by the love of Yeshua seen in my life. To be able to show a Jewish person what a true Christian is and to combat the centuries of persecution with the love of Yeshua ...ah, that is what I long to do if the Lord would give me the marvelous opportunity to do so.

[i]"Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved." Romans 10:1[/i]

 2007/2/1 18:46

Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924

 institutionalized anti-semitism

bro Ron and Bro Bartle
i just had a thought, perhaps anti-semitism in britain is not so much institutionalized like say a Jim Crow-type set of laws which are designed to hold back Jews. what if this anti-semitism is not so much laws of the land but rather the attitudes and the hearts of people toward Jews? here in america slavery was abolished and rights between and among races equalized, however racism still occurs not because it is law, but that is the spirit of some of the people. could this be the case here?

in some white americans there is a disdain for black folk/other races/creeds which is not always apparent but nonetheless has an effect on how they deal with us. what if there is such a thing concerning Jews in England?

something to think about?

Farai Bamu

 2007/2/1 21:20Profile


Fella's this is a forum, and there is going to be difference's of opinions. So far, I am enjoying the discussions. I don't see Ron or Neil throwing rocks at each other, they are just offering their perspectives. Certainly, it may get heated, however if you want to extract medicine from HERBS you have to chop it up and cook it. Just keep that in mind guys, so the WHOLE community can benefit from it and be edified.

Edification comes when we see the TRUTH, and let the CHURCH body out there judge between what is being said. Some will judge and go into error, others will see the truth and be edified.

Don't be MAD, get GLAD!!

 2007/2/1 21:47

Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re: institutionalized anti-semitism

what if this anti-semitism is not so much laws of the land but rather the attitudes and the hearts of people toward Jews?

There is no underlying mood of anti-semitism in the UK. There are anti-semites and there are organisation which are anti-semitic but they are not typical of the ordinary UK mind-set. The English themselves are an island race and the Greek for island is insular; some Brits are more than insular they are zenophobic. The recognition that someone is a foreigner however is usually based on colour or culture. For the Jews as individuals there are no identifying signs and most people just won't even now that such folk are Jews. There is no institutional or insipient barrier against Jews. However where Jews identify themselves with Zionism there will be the typical caution of the Brits. Islam and Zionism are both territorial ideologies; this will certainly make Brits uncomfortable. Jews, racially and religiously are not necessarily territorial.

Ron Bailey

 2007/2/2 2:30Profile

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