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crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Re: Original restated

[i]i told me pastor about tribes and people that never got a chance to hear the gospel and he said something about how if one was really seeking to find god then he would send the people a missionary or something, and ive heard that before but then i was thinking, what about the tribes like before christopher columbus. no one who was christian ever reached them. maybe someone has heard of some guy from a tribe seeing a vision of jesus because he seeked god or something but its been bothering me because i was thinking how ya its easy for me to accept jesus...well you know not easy but i mean easier since i actually live in a place where jesus is preached, but what about the people who never got it preached to them. my pastor said the gospel is now preached everywhere but i know it wasnt in the past because christians hadnt traveled the whole world at one point.[/i]

There is some very good discussion here and this is not dissuade that at all. It did however occur to me that the original question here ended up being somewhat overshadowed.

Am sure this has been addressed here before, it would take some searching to find prior postings. I really do not have much to add finding so much of it speculation at best ...

Gen 18:25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?



_________________
Mike Balog

 2007/1/28 10:10Profile
taco
Member



Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 211


 Re:

Quote:
Heres a small list for you


You are suggesting that these are all non religious?

 2007/1/28 14:25Profile
saved_matt
Member



Joined: 2005/7/3
Posts: 233
Lancashire, England

 Re:

Quote:
You are suggesting that these are all non religious?



no, of course not as the part of your post i was reffering to was the bit about how you doubted there were any 'credible' biologists who believe that human beings appeared without an ancestory, i supplied a list of present day ones.

I'm just wondering what your getting at asking about 'non-religious biologists who dont believe in human beings without an ancestory'

not a challenge just a geniune question

If your looking for non christian creationists i can tell you that Islam has it's own creationism ;-)

matt and mim


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matt

 2007/1/28 15:26Profile
taco
Member



Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 211


 Re:

If you read back you will see that I was refering to Comptons suggestion that there were non christians who questioned evolution.

I looked up some of the people that you listed. Many of these believe the earth (and in fact whole universe) is no more than ten thousand years old!

This is not science. I look up above me and I see the light from stars that has been traveling for millions of years.

Earth is around five billion years old. Many many types of dating all come up with this figure. Its not a conspiracy.

God is a patient God He is well able to take his time to get the job done.

 2007/1/28 15:37Profile
HomeFree89
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Joined: 2007/1/21
Posts: 797
Indiana

 Re:



"God is a patient God He is well able to take his time to get the job done."

But God is also I God who likes to do the humanly impossible things. Why can't we all just take God's Word literally and believe that He would do something awesome like creating the world in six 24hr. days?

If we start rationalizing things like that in the Bible how are we supposed to believe what we read in the NT about Jesus' miracles?

Jordan


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Jordan

 2007/1/28 15:48Profile
saved_matt
Member



Joined: 2005/7/3
Posts: 233
Lancashire, England

 Re:

Quote:
God is a patient God He is well able to take his time to get the job done.



Absolutely right God could have taken about 4.6 billion years to form man from 'the dust of the ground' i dont disagree with you at all on that, but the question is not what God could have done but what has He said He's done?

Exodus 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.


You also say
Quote:
I looked up some of the people that you listed. Many of these believe the earth (and in fact whole universe) is no more than ten thousand years old!

This is not science.



Interesting because:

Quote:
Earth is around five billion years old.



this is not Biblical

Matt and Mim

PS. For the starlight time travel issue see this: [url=http://www.answersingenesis.org/tj/v17/i2/cosmology.asp]A new cosmology: solution to the starlight travel time problem[/url]


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matt

 2007/1/28 15:49Profile
taco
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Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 211


 Re:

Quote:
If we start rationalizing things like that in the Bible how are we supposed to believe what we read in the NT about Jesus' miracles?



Its not a question of rationalising. The earth is well over 6000 years old. Its pointless to try to pretend its not. I think its not a good idea either to force a situation where for God to be God and the bible to be true we must believe in a young earth.

When our kids grow up and start finding out that the earth is not 6000 years old they will begin to fell they have a choice God or science. This is an unnessasry position to put people in IMO.

You are entitled to believe the earth is 6000 years old if you like but I think it is pretty shaky ground to be honest.

[edit for sentence structure error]

 2007/1/28 15:57Profile
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Taco,

Quote:
You are suggesting that these are all non religious?



I suppose it's part of the PC bigotry where atheism is euphemized as "objective", that we must be forced to even ask the question of their faith in God. Apparently only athiests are allowed to grind their theological axes at the university level.

Well take heart...

Michael Denton, the author of "Evolution: A Theory in Crisis", is not only a molelcuar biologist he is also an athiest. I suppose the latter qualification is the most important to the Evolutionist.

Here is an exerpt from his above mentioned book that explains how much irrational faith evolution really requires.


The human brain consists of about ten thousand million nerve cells. Each nerve cell puts out somewhere in the region of between ten thousand and one hundred thousand connecting fibers by which it makes contact with other nerve cells in the brain. Although the total number of connections in the human brain appraoches 10 to the 15th power (or a thousand million million). Numbers to the order of 10 to the 15th power are of course completely beyond comprehension. Imagine an area about half the size of the USA (one million square miles) covered in a forest of trees containing ten thousand trees per square mile. If each tree contained one hundred thousand leaves, the total number of leaves in the forest would be 10 to the 15th power, equivalent to the total number of connections in the human brain!

Even if only one hundreth of the connections in the brain were specifically organized, this would represent a system containing a much greater number of connections then in the entire communications network on Earth."

Again Denton says...

"The capacity of DNA to store information vastly exceeds that of any other known system; it is so efficient that all the information needed to specify an organism as complex as man weighs less than a few thousandth-millionths of a gram. The information needed to specify the design of all the species of organisms which have ever existed on the planet, a number according to G. G. Simpson of approximately one thousand million, could be held in a teaspoon and there could still be room for all the information in every book ever written."

In the face of such expanding 21st century scientific knowledge the most obvious question is "how in the world can a 19th century Victorian idea continue to be believed in by reasonable men today?"

The answer is philosophical commitment without regards for objectivity.

Now as far as the other authors I do not know much about their personal beliefs.I do know Phil Johnson realizes there is a God, yet I can't say in what way. The others I can't speak for.

I think the point is that the men I listed are speaking from a secular platform under rigourous peer review from the general scientific community and not from within a 'religous' organization.

I hope this helps!

MC


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Mike Compton

 2007/1/28 16:07Profile
HomeFree89
Member



Joined: 2007/1/21
Posts: 797
Indiana

 Re:

Another question is, how can we believe that God saved us when we have to guess what is true in His word and what is not? How can we be sure there is a heaven? That can't be proven scientifically.

Also, why should we believe something that is totally man's reasoning and not Creator God's own words.

Just a thought, Jordan


_________________
Jordan

 2007/1/28 16:22Profile
taco
Member



Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 211


 Re:

Quote:
I suppose it's part of the PC bigotry where atheism is euphemized as "objective", that we must be forced to even ask the question of their faith in God



I beg your pardon. As I understand it you raised the issue of scientists who are not christians who don't believe in evolution.

I was genuinley surprised by this. The man you quoted is a clear case in point. Very interesting.

I don't believe that atheism makes one objective nor does theism. One either is ir isn;t objective.

I am a believer. And I am interested in Creation/Evolution. Although of course I ultimatley believe in creation I just don't know exactly how God "did it".

I don't want to give the impression that I am challenging people just because they are believers. I was responding to Matt- who seemed to be responding to my request to you for information on non-christian doubters of evolution. I looked up a few on his list and found them listed in AIG so didn't think they qualified.

Its not because I am anti Christian. (I happen to be one).


I am guilty of going down another rabbit trail though.Getting into the whole young earth thing. A very interesting debate but too much of a side issue on this thread which has already spawned other side issues.

 2007/1/28 16:26Profile





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