SermonIndex Audio Sermons
Image Map
Discussion Forum : General Topics : tribes that never heard of jesus

Print Thread (PDF)

Goto page ( Previous Page 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 Next Page )
PosterThread
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Hi Bubbaguy,

Quote:
when you have convinced your followers that science and evolution are of the devil and that hard sciences don't matter



This is an unture statement that does not face up to the real problems with evoluton...which is as much philosophy as it is science. It also should be acknowledged that opposition to evolution exists in the proper 'scientific community' and is not an exclusively Christian position.

There are no 'followers' here...not in the sense you imply with customary hubris. "Of the devil" is irrelevant...the simple fact of the matter is that evolution presents irrational and impossible problems to the honest intellect. To call it "hard science" is plainly a misnomer. It's inability to answer many persistent chasm sized questions...such as explaining the first cell, or the survivability of half-formed organs and appendages, demonstrates that Evolutionary Theory is a belief system can't be defended through measurement or observation alone, but must be organized and discussed along prior philosophic (and even political) commitments.


MC


_________________
Mike Compton

 2007/1/26 13:06Profile
taco
Member



Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 211


 Re:

Quote:
It also should be acknowledged that opposition to evolution exists in the proper 'scientific community' and is not an exclusively Christian position.



Have you any sources to back this up?

(not a challenge, a genuine question)

 2007/1/26 14:03Profile
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Hi Taco,

Here are just a few books that take Evolutionary Theory to task, researched and written by secular "Ivy" league professors and scientists. These authors are not advocating Short Earth Creationsim per se. Nevertheless they have concluded, in light of developments in fields as scientifically rigorous as Biochemistry and Mathematics, that Evoution must be rejected as a credible theory for explaining our origins.

[url=http://www.amazon.com/Darwins-Black-Box-Biochemical-Challenge/dp/0684834936/ref=pd_sim_b_1/002-5415958-1454438]Darwin's Black Box: The Biochemical Challenge to Evolution[/url]

[url=http://www.amazon.com/Evolution-Theory-Crisis-Michael-Denton/dp/091756152X/ref=pd_sim_b_5/002-5415958-1454438]Evolution: A Theory in Crisis[/url]

[url=http://www.amazon.com/Darwin-Trial-Phillip-E-Johnson/dp/0830813241/ref=pd_sim_b_1/002-5415958-1454438]Darwin on Trial[/url]

[url=http://www.amazon.com/Uncommon-Dissent-Intellectuals-Darwinism-Unconvincing/dp/1932236317/ref=pd_sxp_grid_pt_2_2/002-5415958-1454438]Uncommon Dissent: Intellectuals Who Find Darwinism Unconvincing[/url]

[url=http://www.amazon.com/Design-Inference-Eliminating-Probabilities-Probability/dp/0521678676/ref=pd_sxp_grid_i_0_2/002-5415958-1454438]The Design Inference: Eliminating Chance through Small Probabilities. (Cambridge Studies in Probability Induction and Decision Theory)[/url]

[url=http://www.amazon.com/Reason-Balance-Against-Naturalism-Education/dp/0830819290/ref=pd_sim_b_2/002-5415958-1454438]Reason in the Balance: The Case Against Naturalism in Science, Law & Education[/url]

MC


_________________
Mike Compton

 2007/1/26 14:30Profile
taco
Member



Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 211


 Re:

I am not sure that most of these IDers would be accepted by the scientific community at large. This of course doesn't throw their arguments out. Most of them do believe in, what most evangelicals would see as, evolution. They possibly reject that life itself started by a random process or that evolution was not directed in some way. But I think you will find that tey will all agree that humans had non human ancestors somewhere along the line. I get the impression that this is the bit that evangelicals have a problem with.

I doubt very much that there is a credible biologist that believes that human beings just appeared on the earth without any ancestory behind them. I would be amazed if there were such.

Doesn't bother me personaly. I am here one way or the other :-)



 2007/1/26 14:53Profile
taco
Member



Joined: 2004/4/27
Posts: 211


 Re:

oh, and thanks for the links some of those books look very interesting.

I have final exams coming up shortly and when they are finished I think I will take time to read some of them. I am fascinated by all things scientific.

 2007/1/26 14:57Profile
crsschk
Member



Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA

 Whacky ...

Quote:
here it is; this ministry proports to propagate and support the teachings of the Christian Church and the sermons and ministry of evangelical Christianity. as a Christian i don't like to see what i consider shaky foundations being put underneath the Gospel of Jesus. when the devil (to use your conceptioning) comes along and gives the fundamentalist Church a good whacking, it will come apart at the seams because its foundation excludes everything that God's creation around us is telling us. when you have convinced your followers that science and evolution are of the devil and that hard sciences don't matter in the face of THE WORD, then you are endangering people spiritually.



I don't know quite what to make of that... As it pertains [i]here[/i] the sheer lack of discussion over evolution other than when you bring it up makes this quite a quandary. YOU are the one with this mandate.

Quote:
when you have convinced your followers that science and evolution are of the devil and that hard sciences don't matter in the face of THE WORD, then you are endangering people spiritually.


Again am unsure who "you" refers to, generally, personally or 'this site' wise. But it seems irrelevant and strangely odd to hear you say [i]in the face of THE WORD[/i], this very thing that you have such issue with and dis-allowance of ... unless it pertains to YOUR issue of evolution then it's open to all sorts of interpretation ...

The church has been given more than a good whacking in it's long history and has even become beyond 'wacky' in many instances, and yet ...

Strange that the core fundamentals still stand to this day. Somebody else's seams will come unraveled, but The foundation that was laid is unshakable.


_________________
Mike Balog

 2007/1/26 15:50Profile
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Hi taco,

Quote:
I am not sure that most of these IDers would be accepted by the scientific community at large.



ID, a broad unbrella for ideas that allow for God's influence in life, is the only possible alternative to Evolution, which does not allow for God's influence. (If it did, it would be classified as "Intelligent Design and reject itself!) Note how we are conditioned to accept the tautology that anything that is not evolution is not accepted...So when scientists inteprets data in a way that is not organized along evolutionary guidelines it is assumed the data needs to be reorganized.

This leads one to believe that public institutions are committed to Evolution for philosophic and political reasons. Objective science is often only the pretext in today's politically correctness. However keep in mind that one form of recognition in our most prestigious universities is employment and tenure, and in that regard ID scientists and authors are undeniably respected and 'legit.'


Now science as mere pretext was alive even in Darwins day. Thomas Huxely, the contemporary of Darwin whose fierce defense of Evolution earned him the nickname "Darwins Bulldog" was initially opposed to evolution. One of the reasons he jumped on board the new theory was that it gave him an opportunity to oppose his rival Richard Owens. My deduction here is admittedly subjective, but the historic record does show Huxely's opposition, his hatred for Owens' and his 180 degree turn-about that catapulted him to fame in the victorian scientific world.

Evolution is simply the theory that God did not create life. Evolution then attempts to explain how those organisms most likely to survive are the ones that reproduce the most on their own. This tautology is prejudiced and predisposed to reject any non-naturalistic argument for creation.

Also, it must be considered that if Evolution had been invented 200 years earlier it would not have been accepted because it needed the philosophic and political developments happening in 18th century Europe in order to find enthusiastic endorsement and overcome initial opposition. Further proof of this is the fact that it wasn't untill the mid 20th century that scientists finally achieved a 'method' that could accurately prove and measure the age of rocks. How did they know that they hadn't found a reliable method untill then...well earlier efforts were providing time frames too short too support Evolution so they had to be rejected.

Compare this to other scientific advancements where regardless of religous or secular obstruction they prevailed. (Astronomy, biology ect.) In fact Christianity and science were quite compatible untill it became fashionable to seperate truth and reason from 'religous faith'. Once this false dichotomy was entrenched, Christians were more or less ostracized from the public discourse on science.

Neo-orthodoxy tried to put a band-aid across this dichotomy. Yet, in the end this school of Christian thought (Barth, Bonhoeffer, Niebuhr) ultimately proved even more problematic to the church because they tried to solve a false problem. There is no conflict or divide between reason and faith.

Blessings

MC


_________________
Mike Compton

 2007/1/26 16:07Profile
ginnyrose
Member



Joined: 2004/7/7
Posts: 7504
Mississippi

 Re:

I cannot contribute anything scientific to this discussion except for a testimony.

Our oldest son graduated from Mississippi University for Women in 1991 (I think) with a major in Microbiology. He told me if you learn the basic rules as taught in Biology, you can easily detect the fallacy of evolution. He graduated from a state institution of higher learning a creationist. BTW, he did have a professor who was an evolutionist.

ginnyrose


_________________
Sandra Miller

 2007/1/26 21:17Profile
Compton
Member



Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732


 Re:

Quote:
He told me if you learn the basic rules as taught in Biology, you can easily detect the fallacy of evolution



I believe that Ginnyrose.

I'm certainly no scientist myself! LOL However, much of the material that is available to the public is understandable in a basic way on a layman's level.

Also it should be remembered that Evolution attempts to express itself through many scientific disciplines. This means that while a mathmatician may be an expert in math, this same expert becomes a layman when attempting to express the molecular biology aspects of evolution. In other words, every so called "expert" talking down to the layman, is in fact just a layman themselves in at least some of the fields of study required to 'authenticate' evolution. The title 'scientist' is used as some type of diplomatic immunity against having to answer the reasonable questions of the intelligent layman.

Most "scientific experts" pursuade the public not because they are more intelligent then the rest of us, but that they are more articulate. Well I'm not buying it. To me they are all laymen on some points of the discussion... :-)

Blessings,

MC


_________________
Mike Compton

 2007/1/26 22:11Profile
saved_matt
Member



Joined: 2005/7/3
Posts: 233
Lancashire, England

 Re:

Taco:

Quote:
I doubt very much that there is a credible biologist that believes that human beings just appeared on the earth without any ancestory behind them. I would be amazed if there were such.



Heres a small list for you:

[b]John K.G. Kramer:[/b] Dr. Kramer is a research scientist with Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada. He holds a B.S. (Hons) from the University of Manitoba, an M.S. in biochemistry from the University of Manitoba, a Ph.D. in biochemistry from the University of Minnesota and completed three years of post-doctoral studies as a Hormel fellow at the Hormel Institute and as an NRC fellow at the University of Ottawa. Dr. Kramer has identified, characterized and synthesized the structure of numerous food, bacterial, and biological components and has published 128 refereed papers and numerous abstracts and book chapters. He was one of the core scientists who evaluated the toxicological, nutritional and biochemical properties of canola oil and demonstrated its safety. He presently serves as associate editor of the scientific journal LIPIDS.

[b]Paul Giem:[/b] Dr. Giem is assistant professor of emergency medicine at Loma Linda University. He holds a B.A. in chemistry from Union College, Nebraska, an M.A. in religion from Loma Linda University and an M.D. from Loma Linda University. Dr. Giem has published research articles in the areas of religion and medicine. His current research includes work on carbon-14 dating methods. He is author of the book Scientific Theology, which deals with a number of science–Bible areas, including dating methodology and biblical chronology.

[b]Henry Zuill:[/b] Dr. Zuill is professor of biology at Union College in Lincoln, Nebraska, USA. He holds a B.A. in biology from Atlantic Union College, an M.A. in biology from Loma Linda University and a Ph.D. in biology from Loma Linda University. Dr. Zuill also serves as curator of the Joshua C. Turner Arboretum, which is an affiliate of the Nebraska Statewide Arboretum.

[b]Jonathan Sarfati:[/b] Dr. Sarfati is a research scientist for Answers in Genesis in Australia. He holds a B.S. (Hons) in chemistry and a Ph.D. in physical chemistry from Victoria University of Wellington, New Zealand. Dr. Sarfati is a former New Zealand Chess Champion and represented New Zealand at the World Junior Championships and in three chess olympiads.

[b]Ariel A. Roth:[/b] Dr. Roth is a former director of the Geoscience Research Institute in Loma Linda, California. He holds a B.A. in biology from Pacific Union College and an M.S. in biology and a Ph.D. in biology from the University of Michigan. His research has been supported by U.S. government agencies. During his career he held numerous university positions, including professor of biology and chairman, Loma Linda University. During the latter appointment, Dr. Roth directed a university team for underwater research on coral, which was sponsored by the U.S. National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration. He has authored over 140 articles on origins issues and for 23 years edited the journal Origins.

[b]Timothy Standish:[/b] Dr. Standish is associate professor of biology at Andrews University in Berrien Springs, Michigan. He holds a B.S. in zoology from Andrews University, an M.S. in biology from Andrews University, and a Ph.D. in biology and public policy from George Mason University (University of Virginia), Charlottesville, Virginia. He teaches genetics at Andrews University and is currently researching the genetics of cricket (Achita domesticus) behavior.

[b]Bob Hosken:[/b] Dr. Hosken is senior lecturer in food technology at the University of Newcastle, Australia. He holds a B.S. in biochemistry from the University of Western Australia, an M.S. in biochemistry from Monash University, a Ph.D. in biochemistry from the University of Newcastle and an M.B.A. from the University of Newcastle. Dr. Hosken has published more than 50 research papers in the areas of protein structure and function, food technology, and food product development.

[b]James Allan:[/b] Dr. Allan is a former senior lecturer in genetics at the University of Stellenbosch in South Africa. He holds a B.S. in agriculture from the University of Natal, an M.S. in agriculture from the University of Stellenbosch and a Ph.D. in genetics from the University of Edinburgh, Scotland. He currently serves as an international consultant in the field of dairy cattle breeding.

[b]George Tavor:[/b] Dr. Javor is Professor of Biochemistry, School of Medicine, Loma Linda University, in Loma Linda, California. He holds a B.S. in chemistry from Brown University, a Ph.D. in biochemistry from Columbia University, New York, and completed post-doctoral studies at Rockefeller University. Dr. Javor has published over 40 technical papers and abstracts in the area of biochemistry and a similar number of articles on science-Bible topics.

[b]Dwain Ford:[/b] Professor Ford is Emeritus Professor of Chemistry, Andrews University, Berrien Springs, Michigan. He holds a B.A. in chemistry from Andrews University and a Ph.D. in chemistry from Clark University, Worcester, Massachusetts. Over an academic career spanning more than 30 years at Andrews University, Professor Ford served in various positions including chairman of the Department of Chemistry and dean of the College of Arts and Sciences. He was the recipient of five awards for excellence in teaching as well as three National Science Foundation fellowships.

[b]Angela Meyer:[/b] Dr. Meyer is a former research scientist at Hort Research, Mount Albert Research Centre in New Zealand. She holds a B.S. in botany from the University of Auckland, an M.S. with first class honors in botany from the University of Auckland and a Ph.D. in horticultural science from the University of Sydney. Dr. Meyer (née Snowball) has published 11 refereed papers in the area of seasonal effects on fruit production and in 1994 was awarded the New Zealand Science and Technology bronze medal for excellence in kiwi fruit research and service to science.

[b]John Marcus:[/b] Dr. Marcus is research officer at the Cooperative Research Centre for Tropical Plant Pathology, University of Queensland, Australia. He holds a B.A. in chemistry from Dordt College, an M.S. in biological chemistry and a Ph.D. in biological chemistry from the University of Michigan. Dr. Marcus’s current research deals with novel antifungal proteins, their corresponding genes, and their application in genetic engineering of crop plants for disease resistance.

[b]Nancy Darrall:[/b] Dr. Darrall is a speech therapist at the Bolton Community Health Care Trust in the United Kingdom. She holds a B.S. with first class honors in agricultural botany from the University of Wales, a Ph.D. in botany from the University of Wales, Aberystwyth, and an M.S. in speech and language pathology and therapy from the University of London. For 14 years Dr. Darrall worked in the area of environmental research at the National Power, Technology, and Environmental Centre, at Leatherhead, studying the environmental impact of electricity generation, and in particular the physiological effects of gaseous air pollutants on agricultural crops and trees.

[b]Arthur Jones:[/b] Dr. Jones is a science and education consultant. He has a B.S. (Hons) from the University of Birmingham in biology; an M.Ed. from Bristol University and a Ph.D. in biology from the University of Birmingham. Dr. Jones has taught science and religion courses at London and Bristol Universities. He presently works for the Christian Schools’ Trust as their research consultant for curriculum development. He is a member of the Institute of Biology, London.

[b]George Howe:[/b] Dr. Howe is professor, Division of Natural Sciences and Mathematics, the Masters College, Newhall, California. He holds a B.S. in botany from Wheaton College, an M.S. in botany and a Ph.D. in botany from Ohio State University, where he was a Charles F. Kettering fellow. He also completed post-doctoral studies in botany at Washington State University; in desert biology at Arizona State University; and in radiation biology at Cornell University. As well as publishing technical papers and books in the area of botany, he has published numerous papers in the area of creation versus mega-evolution, and philosophy of science. He served as president of the Creation Research Society from 1977 to 1983.

[b]D.B Gower:[/b] Professor Gower is emeritus professor of steroid biochemistry at the University of London, United Kingdom. He holds a B.S. in chemistry from the University of London, a Ph.D. in biochemistry from the University of London and was awarded a D.Sc. from the University of London for his research into the biochemical mechanisms for the control of steroid hormone formation. Professor Gower is a fellow of the Royal Society of Chemistry, a fellow of the Institute of Biology and a chartered chemist.

[b]Walter Vieth:[/b] Dr. Walter J. Veith is professor and chair of the Department of Zoology at the University of Western Cape, South Africa. He holds a B.S. (hons) cum laude and an M.S. in zoology from the University of Stellenbosch, and a Ph.D. in zoology from the University of Cape Town. He is the author of The Genesis Conflict: Putting the Pieces Together.

[b]Robert Eckel:[/b] Dr. Eckel is professor of medicine, and of physiology and biophysics, and program director, General Clinical Research Center, at the University of Colorado Health Sciences Center. He holds a B.S. cum laude in bacteriology, University of Cincinnati, and an M.D. from the University of Cincinnati College of Medicine. Dr. Eckel has published more than 80 research papers, 17 book chapters and received 20 research awards. He is a reviewer for 50 medical journals, a member of the American Society for Clinical Investigation and The Association of American Physicians, and chairman, Nutrition Committee, American Heart Association.

[b]Jack Cuozzo:[/b] Dr. Cuozzo is a research orthodontist and head of the orthodontic section, Mountainside Hospital, Montclair, New Jersey. He majored in biology at Georgetown University, and has a D.D.S. from the University of Pennsylvania and an M.S. in oral biology from Loyola University, Chicago, Illinois. Dr. Cuozzo took the first cephalometric (orthodontic) radiographs of the Neanderthal fossils in France and subsequently in many other countries. He has published a number of articles related to origins from a biblical perspective, and a book, Buried Alive.1 He was a member of the American Association of Orthodontists for more than 30 years.

[b]Geoff Downes:[/b] Dr. Downes is Senior Research Scientist with the Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organisation (CSIRO), Division of Forestry and Forest Products, in Australia. He holds a B.S. (hons) first class from Monash University, a Ph.D. in tree physiology from the University of Melbourne, and spent a year as a post-doctoral fellow at the University of Aberdeen, Scotland. At CSIRO, Dr. Downes researches climatic and environmental effects on wood formation.

[b]Wayne Friar:[/b] Professor Frair is professor emeritus of biology at The King’s College, Tuxedo, New York. He holds a B.A. in zoology from Houghton College, New York, a B.S. in zoology from Wheaton College, Illinois, an M.A. in embryology from the University of Massachusetts, and a Ph.D. in biochemical taxonomy from Rutgers, The State University, New Jersey. He is the author of a number of research papers on turtles and also on creation-evolution topics, including the book A Case for Creation.1 He was a witness for the defense at the famous 1981 creation versus evolution trial in Little Rock, Arkansas. Professor Frair is a fellow of the American Association for the Advancement of Science and, for the years 1986 to 1993, served as president of the Creation Research Society.

[b]Sid Cole:[/b] Dr. Cole is a research associate at the Sanitarium Health Food Company in Australia. He holds a B.S. and M.S. in chemistry from Melbourne University and a Ph.D. from Newcastle University for studies of ligand binding by metalloporphyrins. He is a former director of the Australasian Food Research Laboratories and a fellow of the Australian Institute of Food Science.

[b]Don Batten:[/b] Dr. Batten is a research scientist for Answers in Genesis in Australia. He holds a B.Sc.Agr. with first-class honors from the University of Sydney and a Ph.D. in plant physiology from the University of Sydney. Dr. Batten worked for 18 years as a research scientist with the New South Wales Department of Agriculture, studying the floral biology, environmental adaptation, and breeding of sub-tropical tropical fruit tree species such as the lychee, custard apple, and mango.


You did ask about just biologists didn't you?

I left out all the mathematcians, physicists, geologists etc..:-P

All of the above have written articles that can be found in this book: [url=http://www.amazon.com/Six-Days-Scientists-Believe-Creation/dp/0890513414/sr=8-1/qid=1169993407/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/105-2251466-4645244?ie=UTF8&s=books]In Six Days[/url]

matt and mim


_________________
matt

 2007/1/28 9:18Profile





©2002-2021 SermonIndex.net
Promoting Genuine Biblical Revival.
Affiliate Disclosure | Privacy Policy