To the ones talking about Babel,
One thing that may be problematic,
Many teach that every time someone speaks in tongues it has to be a know language or it is Babel.
This was true (as far as a known language) for Acts 2:6-8 6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language. 7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans? 8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
Yet, this appears to be an isolated text in Scripture. Is this how it happens every time?
(Appearance of cloven tongues of fire, everyone speaking in tongues, everyone understanding them in their own language.
No, the tongues in first Cor 14, never mentions cloven tongues, it says it is not directed to man but God, NO MAN UNDERSTANDS HIM, it can only be two or three at the most in order, it must be interpreted .
14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
So, I want to know when Scripture says no man understands him, why do you all think man has to understand. If I went to MEXICO and spoke Spanish without ever learning the language, are you telling me the entire nation has the gift of interpretation?
The gift of tongues is a spiritual gift, the gift or interpretation is a spiritual gift.
NO MAN UNDERSTANDS HIM?
Can someone share your insight?
God Bless you all, Josh
| 2006/12/10 8:08||Profile|
Quote: If you are truly open to an explaination to this verse I'd be honored that you would consider this...
1co 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
Tounges of angels: He's using a hyperbole. He's saying EVEN IF I SPOKE ALL THE LANGUAGES! Not even if I spoke like angels. He's saying EVEN IF IT WAS POSSIBLE to speak in all the languages- it would mean nothing if he had not love.
Follow this pattern in the text:
1 Corinthians 13
1 If I could speak all the languages of earth and of angels, but didnt love others, I would only be a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. 2 If I had the gift of prophecy, and if I understood all of Gods secret plans and possessed all knowledge, and if I had such faith that I could move mountains, but didnt love others, I would be nothing. 3 If I gave everything I have to the poor and even sacrificed my body, I could boast about it; but if I didnt love others, I would have gained nothing.
Do you see the pattern of how he is speaking?
1 co 14
22 So you see that speaking in tongues is a sign, not for believers, but for unbelievers. Prophecy, however, is for the benefit of believers, not unbelievers.
| 2006/12/11 12:11||Profile|
Where in scripture do Angles speak in a heavenly language? I only see Angles speaking to man with understanding. Just what is a heavenly language? The Holy Spirit teaches the Christ in you with understanding, not in a heavenly language that is needs to be interpreted. I have never seen where Jesus or the Holy Spirit spoke in a heavenly language that needed interpreting to understand, no matter who they were speaking to.
John 14:16-18 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.
We have the Holy Spirit in us and the second Comforter is Jesus Christ Himself by the Seed Incorruptable of the Father. The Holy Spirit has never spoke to me in anyway but in understanding and truth.
Likewise If I don't know what to pray and ask the Holy Spirit to pray for me, It is not me praying with groanings but the Holy Spirit praying for me, and these groanings are not able to be said or understood by man, but the answering to the Holy Spirits praying are able to be understood at the proper time and place of His choosing.
Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
The word tongues in scripture is always set forth as languages.
Mark 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Shall speak with new tongues. Shall speak other languages than their native language. This was remarkably fulfilled on the day of Pentecost, Ac 2:4-11. It existed also in other places. See 1Co 12:10,18.
If I am sharing the Gospel in English and The Holy Spirit wants a Spanish understanding person to hear what the Gospel is, it is the Holy Spirit that will give them understanding in Spanish Not Me speaking in a language I don't know or understand.
The same goes for me speaking in a language (tongue) not naturally learned by me, it is the Holy Spirit Speaking through me as He gives utterance and in His good Pleasure, not mine.
G1100 glossa (26)
glossa gloce-sah' of uncertain affinity; the tongue; by implication, a language (specially, one naturally unacquired):--tongue.
OF TONGUES (3)
Mr 16:17; Ac 2:3,4,11; 10:46; Ro 3:13; 1Co 13:8; 14:22; Re 7:9; 10:11; 11:9; 13:7; 16:10; 17:15
WITH THE TONGUES (1)
WITH TONGUES (8)
Ac 19:6; 1Co 12:30 ...
G2084 heteroglossos (1)
heteroglossos het-er-og'-loce-sos from 2087 and 1100; other- tongued, i.e. a foreigner:--man of other tongue.
OTHER TONGUES (1)
I don't see a heavenly language anywhere, especially one that man is speaking to God in. God does not need us to speak in a heavenly language, He knows every thought even before we think it. Let us be built up in the Spirit of Christ that is in us and leave the Spiritual Gifts to the Gifted One, which is, "Christ in you the Hope of Glory" and allow the Holy Spirit to use these Gifts for the upbuilding of the Body of Christ and He sees fit.
1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
1 Corinthians 12:18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
1 Corinthians 12:11-12 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
In Christ: Phillip
| 2006/12/11 18:52||Profile|
"""""Tounges of angels: He's using a hyperbole. He's saying EVEN IF I SPOKE ALL THE LANGUAGES! Not even if I spoke like angels. He's saying EVEN IF IT WAS POSSIBLE to speak in all the languages- it would mean nothing if he had not love."""""
Amen, In The Old and New Testament, The Angles always spoke with understanding to whom they were speaking. Why would we be any different in speaking the tongues of Angles. They spoke to all in understanding.
In Christ: Phillip
| 2006/12/11 19:13||Profile|
Although I refrain from using the term, Heavenly language because its not biblical, it doesnt mean I dont believe that there is not a spiritual language that reaches the heavens. A more biblical term may be praying in the spirit. 1 Corinthians 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayed, but my understanding is unfruitful.
It is true Jesus did not speak in tongues but remember he said, John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. Some of the gifts, (like tongues) came when Jesus went away.
As far as the Holy Spirit speaking in tongues, he is the one that gives the utterance. Acts 2:4 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. As far as needing interpretation to understand, 1. Back to vs. 14 my understanding is unfruitful 2. 1 Corinthians 14:27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; AND LET ONE INTERPRET. 3. It is a gift. 1 Corinthians 12:10b to another the INTERPRETATION of tongues:
Mark 16:15-17 15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. 16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. 17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Some always like to say this is all fulfilled. It would be more accurate to say, the fulfillment started in Acts but its still being fulfilled today.
Lets leave the gifts to the gifted one. This comment seems to push the responsibility back to God.
1. 1 Peter 1:16 16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. No. Lets just leave the holiness to the Holy One.
2. Luke 6:38 38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again. No. Lets just let the true Giver give.
3. 1 Corinthians 12:31 - 13:1 31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way. No. Lets just leave the gift to the Gifted One.
As far as a heavenly language, if this is ones definition of an unknown tongue/ heavenly language, 1 Corinthians 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue SPEAKETH NOT UNTO MEN, BUT UNTO GOD; FOR NO MAN UNDERSTANDETH HIM; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. than it is possible that I still agree.
Sometimes it may just be terminology, For Example Trinity is an unbiblical term, yet it is universally accepted. Heavenly language is an unbiblical term only accepted in some groups.
God Bless Josh
| 2006/12/12 0:31||Profile|
""It is true Jesus did not speak in tongues but remember he said, John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. Some of the gifts, (like tongues) came when Jesus went away.""
Tongues are not the reason the Holy Spirit would come. This is the reason the Holy Spirit came.
John 14:16-20 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
That we shall know that Jesus Christ is in us and we are in Him and together we are in God The Father. WE know have the Nature of God birthed in us, that is the reason Jesus told Nicodemus we must be born again to see the things of the the Kingdom of God. This is not the Word of Faith teaching of the name it and claim it crowd. This is the truth of the Word of God.
Colossians 1:27-28 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
Colossians 3:1-4 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
WE don't need tongues when we have Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit in us. He The Holy Spirit will teach us all things Christ has spoken and bring it to our memory.
John 14:26-27 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
There are no tongues needed since the HOLY SPIRIT has come. Now tongues are the least of the Gifts and only used when the Holy Spirit uses them to make the Gospel plain to different language speaking people that the Gospel is plain, understanding the Jesus Christ is the Son of God and The Holy Spirit because of a believing person has now come into them forever, and they now have The Spirit of Christ birthed in them and Jesus Christ and the Father now make Their abode with them.
John 14:22-27 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and (((make our abode with him.))) He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me. These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
It is the Father speaking to us always, the words Jesus speaks are not His by the Fathers'. The Father uses His Holy Spirit in us to reveal truth and the mystery hid from all ages, that is "Christ in you the Hope of Glory."
Again: Colossians 1:27-28 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
This is our life, not the Gifts of the Spirit. Leave the use of them to Him, for it is in His Good pleasure that make for the building up of the Body of Christ. Since Pentecost, He is the One that does the Building by the Christ that is in us. He is in us forever. The only gift we need is Christ in you the Hope of Glory.
Mat 23:18 And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty.
Mat 23:19 [Ye] fools and blind: for whether [is] greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?
Who is the Gift and who is the Gifted One?
Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
The Gift of the Holy Spirit and the Gift of Himself born again in those that believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of the Living God.
Ephesians 4:11-12 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Who is the One that disperses these Gifts as He pleases? Ephesians 4:20-23 But ye have not so learned Christ; If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; 1 Corinthians 12:11-13 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, (Christ)whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. (The Holy Spirit)
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
It is the Holy Spirit the disperser of the Gifts. Not man.
In Christ: Phillip
| 2006/12/12 2:44||Profile|
if angels didn't have a heavenly language and their language was our language, then why would paul say tongues of men and of angels, and not just tongues. This clearly shows a difference between the two.
And on the spiritual gifts, if you believe the operation of gifts is not up to you, then you are definitely in a misunderstanding. The operation of spiritual gifts is essential to edification and always present in a mature and spirit filled church body.
When bible says, if i speak in tongues, i edify myself, why would tongues be considered unimportant? Sounds very important to self edification to me.
And why is it that people that don't speak in tongues don't operate in the gifts? Healing, prophecy, miracles, the gift of tongues, interpretation of tongues, discerning of evil spirits, word of wisdom, word of knowledge, and faith. These are special gifts which operate in extraordinary ways in the lives of spirit filled believers.
| 2006/12/12 2:57||Profile|
Comment) Tongues are not the reason the Holy Spirit would come.
The Holy Spirit came for many purposes defined all through the Scripture. It is plain to see ONE of the reasons he came was to give gifts. 1 Corinthians 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as HE (the Spirit of God) will. I am not saying this is the only reason he came, yet I am saying when he came he definitely did give gifts. (Including tongues)
Comment) This is not the Word of Faith teaching of the name it and claim it crowd.
I dont know if you are implying what I am presenting doesnt agree with your Church (Word of Faith) doctrines. Or maybe some Word of faith group offended you. I am just trying to present biblical teaching.
Comment) There are no tongues needed since the HOLY SPIRIT has come.
If this statement were true; we would have never had a need for tongues at all. In Acts 2 we see the outpouring of the Spirit. In other words they already had the Holy Spirit and were still speaking in tongues all through the book of Acts...
Comment) This is our life, not the Gifts of the Spirit.
My life is loving Jesus, what can I say? There is something about loving him. THIS IS MY LIFE!!! About the gifts, they are one element in maintaining a balanced walk.
Comment) Mat 23:18 And, Whosoever shall swear by the altar, it is nothing; but whosoever sweareth by the gift that is upon it, he is guilty.
Mat 23:19 [Ye] fools and blind: for whether [is] greater, the gift, or the altar that sanctifieth the gift?
I dont know why you have these posted here. This is referring to how the Pharisees were twisting the law to benefit themselves.
To be honest, I really did not see your point in most of your comments.
God Bless, Josh
| 2006/12/12 4:21||Profile|
1 Corinthians 14:14
14 For if I pray in a unknown tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful.
From G4154; a current of air, that is, breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively a spirit, that is, (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc.
In other words I can repharse this to say... "If you pray in an unknown tounge ...Sure you are praying but you don't make any sense."
In context with the next verse...
14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful. 15 What is the conclusion then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will also pray with the understanding. I will sing with the spirit, and I will also sing with the understanding.
| 2006/12/12 9:53||Profile|
Jesus knew we would need a Comforter, not to be used by man but to give man understanding of who He was, This Jesus Christ the Son of God. Why would we need a Comforter, Teacher? Man on his own cannot know or learn the things of God. How long did Israel a special chosen people set aside from the rest of creation? The what did they do? If the rest of the world was chosen instead of Israel, they could not have done any better. It was not the people but God who needed to be The One that gave His Creation an understanding of Who He is. Our God is a Lamb. He wants us to be lambs. We can try as we will and still we can never be what God is unless He gives us an infusion of Himself. A father brings forth offspring that are like him. A created being is not offspring. It takes offspring to be like a Father. That is all that God has wanted from when ever He decided He wanted children in His House. Gifts are not the important part of our life. It is being offspring of the Father By The Son Jesus Christ. If we had these gifts on our own we would use them against each other to get what we want and our pride would overpower the week ones. Wow, sounds like a world I know of. The gifts of the Spirit are in His keeping and He uses them without hippocracy for the building up of the body of Christ. Man uses these gifts to build up himself. If tongues are building up the body of Christ by the Holy Spirit, then everybody needs to speak in tongues. That is why the Holy Spirit uses the Gifts as He pleases because man cannot be trusted with the same power. I must decrease the Christ may increase, the more I decrease the more Christ can be manifest through me. Trust Christ and He will be the Gifted One that the Holy Spirit can use in the believer to "present every man in Christ". I may be rambling but the Christ in you is the Gifted One and this is our need. To seek Him First and allow all the rest to come by His strength and power in truth produced through the Holy Spirit and His teaching and His use of the Gifts which will be perfect.
Why would man want to speak in an unknown tongue? Pride? Ya think? There is no pride in the Gifts that are used by God through the Holy Spirit by Christ Jesus.
Why would man want to argue against tongues? Jealousy? Maybe? It is God who searches the Heart and the One who has planned for all contingencies of the weaknesses of man. Trust in the Lord with all your Heart and all these things will be added unto you.
In Christ: Phillip
| 2006/12/12 13:49||Profile|