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EVAVGELIST
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Joined: 2006/11/23
Posts: 113
PERRIS CA

 Re:

Lovegrace don’t get so snappy,

About Philip the Apostle and Philip the Evangelist. When dealing with the book of Acts, if you apply hermeneutical rules of interpretation you can easily see that they are not the same person. 1. It is inferred by the text. Acts 6:2-3 2 So the twelve (including Philip the Apostle) summoned the congregation of the disciples and said, "It is not desirable for us (the 12) to neglect the word of God in order to serve tables. 3 "Therefore, brethren, select from among you (the congregation of the disciples excluding all the Apostles) seven men of good reputation, full of the Spirit and of wisdom, whom we may put in charge of this task. Acts 6:5 5 The statement found approval with the whole congregation; and they chose Stephen, a man full of faith and of the Holy Spirit, and Philip (the deacon not the Apostle), Acts 8:1 Acts 8:1 Saul was in hearty agreement with putting him to death. And on that day a great persecution began against the church in Jerusalem, and they were all scattered throughout the regions of Judea and Samaria, EXCEPT THE APOSTLES (this means Philip the Apostle did not go anywhere) Acts 8:4-5 4 Therefore, those who had been scattered (all of them except the Apostle) went about preaching the word. 5 Philip (not the Apostle, because the Apostles did not go anywhere) went down to the city of Samaria and began proclaiming Christ to them. HOPE THIS CAN HELP YOU


KingJimmy about your Greek,

Eph 2:20 it is in the aorist, Verb Participle Aorist Passive (HAVING BEING BUILT) which is still considered a past tense.


Gracealone,

Are you suggesting that because this is in the past tense (having being built) that there is no longer any purpose for Apostles and Prophets?


Thank you all for all your insight.


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JOSHUA MEYERS

 2006/12/5 0:18Profile
KingJimmy
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Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:


Eph 2:20 it is in the aorist, Verb Participle Aorist Passive (HAVING BEING BUILT) which is still considered a past tense.



Oops! You are correct. I mis-parsed :) However, while an Aorist is considered something having been done in the past, it says nothing about it's completion. An aorist is something done in the past over an undefined period of time. It says nothing of completion.


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Jimmy H

 2006/12/5 6:43Profile
GraceAlone
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Joined: 2006/8/23
Posts: 232
Orlando, Florida

 Re:

Quote:
It says nothing of completion. (Eph 2:20)

Because its not done being completed. The church has not stopped being built. The apostles however have. Otherwise, the church couldn't be built considering that they are the foundation of the church.

Eph 2:20
having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone


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Kristy

 2006/12/5 11:43Profile
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Joined: 2006/11/23
Posts: 113
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 Re:

How do you deal with Eph 4:11-12
Ephesians 4:11-13 11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; 13 UNTIL we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.

UNTIL In other words all Office/Gifts will remain
until we all come into the unity of faith


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JOSHUA MEYERS

 2006/12/5 14:01Profile
KingJimmy
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Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

Because its not done being completed. The church has not stopped being built. The apostles however have. Otherwise, the church couldn't be built considering that they are the foundation of the church.



Please see earlier posts I wrote in reference to foundations and apostles.


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Jimmy H

 2006/12/5 15:54Profile
KingJimmy
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Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

UNTIL In other words all Office/Gifts will remain
until we all come into the unity of faith



Indeed. Until these things happen, apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers will be needed. And because of such, when you study the Scriptures you continue to see the rising up of new apostles and prophets throughout the New Testament.

Altogether there are 20 some odd named apostles in the Scriptures. If apostles were some past-tense once-for-all phenomenon, then they would have never been numbered beyond the original 12. But because they served a purpose beyond that of a once-for-all phenomenon, they continued to be rise up, and have continued into the time in which we live.


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Jimmy H

 2006/12/5 16:00Profile
GraceAlone
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Joined: 2006/8/23
Posts: 232
Orlando, Florida

 Re:

Eph 4:11-13 -

And he gave. It has just been shown that Christ "gave gifts to men" (Eph_4:7-8). Of these gifts were various offices. The object of all these offices was to promote "the unity of the faith" (Eph_4:13). Christ has appointed the offices, and gives the men in the church who are fitted for these offices. In the matter of those offices that continue, it is the duty of the church to recognize and call out the men who meet the conditions Christ has given.

Some to be apostles. The apostles were all chosen by Christ. All had to be witnesses of his resurrection (Act_1:22). They, therefore, could have no successors, but their own office continues. They still remain teachers and in authority by their writings and example.

And some, prophets. An inspired office, essential in the church for its teaching until the New Testament was completed.

And some, evangelists. Such as Philip (Act_8:4-12; Act_21:8), Timothy, Titus, etc. This office is to preach the gospel, and will be necessary as long as the church continues on earth. As this office did not require extraordinary gifts, it is permanent.

Pastors and teachers. These were not distinct offices. Bishops, or elders, and especially those "who labored in word and doctrine," came under this head. A pastor should always be an elder, but it is not certain that a teacher was always an elder. These offices were all given for the purposes indicated in the next verse.

For the perfecting of the saints. Helping them to higher and holier lives.

For the work of the ministry. For carrying on the various works assigned to the ministry.

For the edifying of the body of Christ. All was intended to minister to the upbuilding of the church, within and without.

Till we all come. These offices are given in order that all may come to a goal that is named just below. They must be continued in some form until that goal is reached.



Quote:
But because they served a purpose beyond that of a once-for-all phenomenon, they continued to be rise up, and have continued into the time in which we live.

Who continued to rise up? History shows the ending of hits garbage. This is how we get false prophets like Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses. Who in the early church claimed to be an apostle after those who lived with Christ died. Stop worrying about being called an apostle and humble yourself and call yourselves slaves. This is a sad discussion. If somebody claims to have the same authority as the apostles Jesus chose they claim to continue to add revelation to the CLOSED canon.

Jude 1:3
Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.


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Kristy

 2006/12/7 10:17Profile
KingJimmy
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Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

Quote:

The apostles were all chosen by Christ. All had to be witnesses of his resurrection (Act_1:22). They, therefore, could have no successors, but their own office continues. They still remain teachers and in authority by their writings and example.



Indeed, to occupy the abandoned position of Judas, it was required that his replacement have seen the resurrected Christ. However, there is no evidence whatsoever that for apostles who would continue to arise that such was required. No doubt, the apostle Paul saw the resurrected Christ, as well as the apostle James.

However, what of Barnabas, Silas (Silvanus), Timothy, Titus, Apollos, Andronicus, and Junias? All these people are mentioned in Scripture as apostles, yet, the Scriptures are silent in regard to them having seen a resurrected Christ. Indeed, it seems Paul reckon's himself as the last of the apostles to have seen the risen Christ (1 Cor 15:8).

Quote:

Who continued to rise up? History shows the ending of hits garbage.



Don't be so quick to make such a harsh assesment until you have actually studied this out. As mentioned above, such men continued to be named as apostles in the Scriptures. Not only this, but some of the ante-nicene writings contain references to apostles (such as in the second-century "Didache" and Polycarp was called an "apostolic and prophetic man.") And when one understands the word "missionary" began to be used in place of the word "apostle," then all we have to do is look through the halls of history for people making claim to being a missionary. And no generation of Christianity is without those claiming such, and such is what a missionary is-- an apostle.

Here are some references so that you don't continue uninformed in this matter:

Acts 14:14 But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of it, they tore their robes and rushed out into the crowd, crying out

Barnabas and Paul are both named as apostles.

Galatians 1:19 But I did not see any other of the apostles except James, the Lord's brother.

"James" is the Lord's brother has often wrongly been called "The bishop of Jerusalem." Such is a label never given him in all of Scripture, but comes later in history.

Acts 16:7 Greet Andronicus and Junias, my kinsmen and my fellow prisoners, who are outstanding among the apostles, who also were in Christ before me.

Some interpret this verse to simply mean Andronicus and Junias were simply believers highly esteemed by the apostles. Most, including myself, interpret this verse to mean these individuals were recognized as outstanding examples of apostles.

1 Thes 1:1 Paul and Silvanus and Timothy, to the church of the Thesslonians...

1 Thes 2:1 For you yourselves know, brethren, that our coming to you was not in vain... 6 nor did we seek glory from men, either from you or from others, even though as apostles of Christ we might have asserted our authority 7 But we proved to be gentle among you...

Paul, Silvanus (Silas in Acts), and Timothy co-authored the epistle to the Thesselonians. Thus, the constant use of first person plural prounoun's throughout the letter (e.g. "our" and "we). In their letter, they reminded the church there that as apostles of Christ (that is, Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy), they could have asserted their own authority as apostles, but instead chose not to do such. Rather, they were gentle and motherly towards their flock, and preached the gospel without pay.

And for this reason that Timothy is included in the named apostles of Scripture, when we read 1 & 2 Timothy, we need to understand that the apostle Paul is writing to a fellow apostle. And with the letter of Titus resembling so closely the letter of Timothy, it can be deduced that Titus was also an apostle like Timothy was. 1 & 2 Timothy and Titus have wrongly been labeled "The Pastoral Epistles." Quite wrong. They would better be labeled "The Apostolic Epistles."

For when one compares the activity of Titus and Timothy, as being fellow missionary partner's with the apostle Paul, and going out and establishing churches and appointing elders in various cities, and doing all the same things Paul did in his apostolic ministry, then one cannot help but deduce that Titus was also an apostle.

The same goes with Apollos. For in Acts 18:24-19:1 we meet Apollos for the first time. He is going about the world preaching the gospel, though perhaps not quite as accurately as he could, as he seems to have a limited knowledge of the Way, "only knowing of the baptism of John." While making his way around the world, he eventually meets up with Paul in Corinth.

Paul writes of Apollos in 1 Cor. Everytime Apollos is mentioned in 1 Cor, he is always mentioned in apostolic company. For in Corinth, there seems to be quite a number of apostolic workers ministering there. So much so, party's are beginning to form around them. Some are saying they are of Paul, others Apollos, others of Cephas, and others of Christ. Thus, with Apollos constantly being mentioned in such company, it can be deduced that he was also recognized as an apostle.

Corinth really seems to have been an apostolic hot spot. For 2 Corinthians 11-12 Paul writes this letter with an eye on some false apostles who made their way into the Corinthian congregation. These "super apostles" as they so-styled themselves to be, were coming and saying Paul got it all wrong, and were trying to assert themselves as greater than Paul, bearing a greater message. The same goes with the church in Ephesus. In Revelation 2 there are "apostles" who visited the congregation recently. And this church put them to the test, found them out to be false apostles.

Now, how were these false apostles written off? To me, the way they were NOT written of is the most telling thing of all. For in none of these examples of false apostles did the apostles Paul or John simply say, "Well, we are the last of the apostles, therefore, everybody else claiming to be an apostle is false." After all, if they were the last apostles, why not just say so if it were so?

The answer is simple, because they had no concept of apostolic ministry ending with them. Christ was continuing to raise up new apostles in their own generation, and there is no evidence whatsoever they ever expected anything else but such to continue after them.

And because of such, it should come as no surprise that when we read a second-century document such as the Didache, we find "let every apostle that cometh to you be received as the Lord..." along with instructions on how to discern false apostles from the true.

Quote:

If somebody claims to have the same authority as the apostles Jesus chose they claim to continue to add revelation to the CLOSED canon.



I've yet to see such a claim be made. So, let's not argue with ghosts.


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Jimmy H

 2006/12/7 12:04Profile
lovegrace
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Joined: 2006/8/12
Posts: 313


 Re:

Does Calvary Chapel believe in Apostles?

I was listening today on Acts 3 by Chuck Smith (Calvary Chapel "Founder")

I believe he said "Do I believe apostles are in the world today? No. And if they are I don't think they are like the ones in the early church but are different." (Paraphrase, as close as I could remember)

 2006/12/7 16:51Profile
KingJimmy
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Joined: 2003/5/8
Posts: 4419
Charlotte, NC

 Re:

It is interesting that to date, in my own personal research, I have yet to discover a Pentecostal denomination that believes in modern day apostles. That's not to say, I've yet to find individuals within denominations. However, where it seems where Pentecostal denominations have considered it officially, they've denied modern day existence.

I think this is in part out of fear that to acknowledge modern day apostles would essentially undo the hierarchy of modern day denominational structures.


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Jimmy H

 2006/12/7 18:19Profile





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