Poster | Thread | IRONMAN Member
Joined: 2004/6/15 Posts: 1924 IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS
| Re: GOD KILLS ... | | bro Rahman
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i've been told that my thinking is often way to pounderous and just no fun ...
*GASP* why would anyone ever come to such a conclusion?!?! ;-)
i can identify with this although i must say, people don't say it to me for whatever reason, i can just feel it. i suppose it causes people to boldly go where there would otherwise not have gone before.
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Anyhow i was thinking about what you guys said in particular about WWII and the Holocaust under the title: Reasoning Together - and man could i identify with it for when we start trying to look at such horrible events from His perspective (ponderous thinking) i believe that's when He begins to reason with us ...
bro Rahman, indeed when we seek after our Lord, He does reason with us. All of those things which bro Krispy's statements cause me to ponder over and later our Lord taught me about were uknown to me untill that time. indeed our Lord is not slack on pouring out wisdom on those who have none:
1 James chapt 1
[b]If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.[/b]
bless our Lord for that, and also for asking, knocking and seeking also!
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i remember an Elie Weisel interview where he just bemoaned how could he believe in a God that would allow such slaughter of Holocaust Jews ... To tell you the truth his reasoning angered me, and i thought "How could he even fix his mouth to say such a thing, don't he know his own history? ... and "Does he really think that Germany was the first gentile nation God used in killing Jews?" ... All mankind in one way or the other catches hell after the fall, but after God put His name on Israel, Israel caught (as my Mom would say) "pure-t-hell" when they stepped outside God ... Same with us Christians ...
such reasoning has angered me in the past too. however in these last couple of years i have become acutely aware of our Lord's grace and mercy on me...there but for the grace of God go i...bro Rahman i know you can identify with me in that we know were it not for our Lord choosing us, we'd be lost too. now we also ought to know that just as surely as our Lord spared not His chosen nation even under a lesser covenant, whose punishments were meted out without reservation, he will certainly not spare us who are brought in via the Ultimate Covenant by Christ's blood. Grace doesn't give us lisence to act the fool, God will not hesitate to bring the heat. See Hebrews 2 and Hebrews 10 and 1 Peter chapt 1.
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My Dad told me all the time there's no such thing as man's definition of freedom, that we either are under God's yoke or the devil's ...
indeed, our Lord revealed that to me as i was writing back to bro Krispy. "freedom" bought by the blood of men requires the blood of men to maintain it so it is going from 1 bondage to another. however Freedom bought by Christ's blood needs no such input and is instead sustained by Christ Himself, no wonder He said His toke was easy and His burden was light.
_________________ Farai Bamu
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| 2006/12/3 13:30 | Profile | pastorfrin Member
Joined: 2006/1/19 Posts: 1406
| Re: The sword | | Very well said sister Diane, Rev. 13:7-10 |
| 2006/12/3 14:38 | Profile | IRONMAN Member
Joined: 2004/6/15 Posts: 1924 IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS
| Re: | | Sis Diane you said
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Just two swords, mind you, no more! Apparently last year the nations of the world, led by the US, china, Russia, and Israel spend more than $3 trillion on weapons. And yet, if Gideon only needed three hundred common soldiers why do we need more? Do we lack faith? Isnt the sword in our Lords mouth strong enough?
our spending on defense speaks to me of the bondage in which we're in. ie the things bought of the blood of men need to be maintained by the blood of men, so we have no freedom outside of Christ. however God sets up governments to maintain order (romans 13) and so this spending could i guess be an expression of of a lack of faith but nonetheless our Lord's plan marches on. Really though i think this is a symptom of a much greater issue, the dire need for the Saviour. we rely on ourselves because we have no other saviour we know of. the world needs Jesus.
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Do you believe that judgment could fall our way as a result of our trust in the sword? Did that not happen to Assyria and Babylon (God's instruments of judgment), and later to beloved Israel (70AD) Who are we westerners to think were better than any of them?
i believe so sis. in fact as i firmly believe our Lord showed me in some prophetic words (see prophetic credentials 3 in the lounge) one of the things which shall befall our nation is collapse of the military also. The collapse of the economy, government, rule of law and the military will put us in a place where we have to trust and seek our Lord for all. ultimately it will bring forth and make plain the folly of trusting in anyone/thing else but Him.
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Id be most concerned about our real enemy: God. It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. Heb. 10:31 We have been unfaithful. Let us repent before its too late! For the sword of divine judgment is poised over us, ready to strike.
oh AMEN sis. our Lord's hand is raised and He will strike, Judgment begins at the house of God. where some see rapture without trial by fire, i see many disappointed folk...in the revelation before any of the tribulation begins, the 7 Churches receive letters telling them what they ought to do, 5 of them had reprimands and things they had to correct. the vast majority of us have blood in our skirts and unless it is cleansed, nobody's getting raptured anywhere. i see judgment hitting us the Church first, then repentance, then revival and harvest and THEN rapture. _________________ Farai Bamu
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| 2006/12/3 14:45 | Profile | PreachParsly Member
Joined: 2005/1/14 Posts: 2164 Arkansas
| Re: | | Quote:
IRONMAN wrote: bro PreachP
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But it comes out of his mouth.
ok, what's your point? :-?
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I don't think he is going to physically fight
how do you figure that?not asking in a spirit of contention but am curious as to how you got to that conclusion. it seems to me that this sword which procedes from His mouth will smite the remnant of that army of the enemy and kill them so that the birds of the air will come and eat them. seems physical to me. anyhow the bottom line is whether or not Christ will swing His head from side to side with the sword cutting people open, or whether the sword is the word of our Lord and He will speak to the enemy's men and they will burst open is of no consequence, there will be physical blood everywhere.he may fight or not, that's up to Him. i figure since He physically died, He will physically fight, nonetheless we shall see on that day!!!
Oh! Sorry, I forgot all about this thread. My point was that is comes from His mouth. In other words He is going to speak the Word. Some people use that as a justification to "Christianly" (excuse me making up words :-D) fight.
I've also heard some say that "David killed many people but the only one God called murder was Uriah." My question would be, "What was the difference between David killing, Goliath for example, and Uriah?" There surely was a difference. _________________ Josh Parsley
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| 2006/12/7 19:44 | Profile | roadsign Member
Joined: 2005/5/2 Posts: 3777
| Re: | | Quote:
What was the difference between David killing, Goliath...and Uriah
I thought God killed Goliath. Diane _________________ Diane
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| 2006/12/7 19:58 | Profile |
| Re: this should be of interest | | FAITH IN ACTION
Christian Soldier Returns to Front Lines Unarmed By Will Braun, Editor, Geez magazine www.geezmagazine.org
On the phone, in between his duties at Schofield Army Barracks in Hawaii, Sergeant Logan Laituri tells me he wants to "live radically for Christ." Normally I stumble over that sort of fervor couched, as it is, in terms I would usually consider vague and cliche but if following Jesus means telling your captain that 9/11 didn't absolve you of the need to love your enemies, I'll keep listening.
Laituri came to Jesus, as they say, at a dramatic time in his life. He was back from 14 months in Iraq as a front-liner in the U.S. Army, and scheduled to return. It was spring, 2005.
His new girlfriend's family welcomed him with a Christian love so genuine he couldn't resist. He ended up in a New Testament history class at a local college, and was also faced with the incisive questions from his philosophical brother and roommate. Soon he found himself immersed in scripture, filled with the spirit and brimming with passion.
The 25-year-old Laituri grew up the son of an agnostic Vietnam Vet in Orange County, California. In 2000, he joined the Army, hoping for education and travel. After a first term, he re-enlisted for an assignment in Hawaii, looking forward to some good surf. Throughout his six years in the military, Laituri had identified as Christian. "I had all the stickers and stuff," he says of his earlier faith, but that was about the extent of it.
His conversion brought change. He started heeding his college instructor's directive to let the Bible shape his opinions, rather than his opinions shaping it. Again, I'd dismiss this as tired religio-garble, if he weren't talking about his "place in geo-politics" at the same time.
"I realized I had to figure out what it meant to me to be a soldier," he says. "How do I act in my particular job and still follow the great commandment to love your neighbor as yourself? Ya know, how can I do that when I'm asked to basically lay waste to kinda large scale areas?"
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"We do know [Jesus] preaches peace," says Major Norman W. Jones, an Army Chaplain whom Laituri consulted at one point, "but it did not mean [Jesus] was against a nation going to war." Major Jones whose tone is open and entirely gracious tells me the "sticky point is where [Jesus] says 'do not kill,'" and that's where Just War theory comes in. Though Jones sees faith and military service as compatible, he says he would have sympathy for a soldier whose faith convictions led to the conclusion that the U.S. war in Iraq is not just. "I'm here to support the soldier," he says, convincingly. Jones, who studied at Dallas Theological Seminary, points to the Biblical command to obey the government as the bottom line, though he adds that obedience to God trumps duty to one's nation.
Laituri who punctuates conversation both with Bible verses and mini-rants about the sins of nationalistic ego also looks to the good book as the source of "absolute truth," though it leads him in a different direction. When it says love your enemies, he says he "can't kill someone in love."
As his infantry company started gearing up for a return to Iraq, Lairturi was busy asking people about faith, war, and the decisions he faced. In response, he got a lot of Just War theory, and rationalization for the the necessity of violence. People told him it was morally wrong to do nothing about the nation's enemies. One commander, who is also a Baptist preacher, assured Laituri that since he was a Christian, Jesus had died for all his sins, and therefore he was already forgiven for whatever he would do on the battlefield.
The people who had welcomed him to the faith did not welcome his questioning of military morality. His then-girlfriend's father told Laituri he was part of God's hand in bringing judgement to Muslim extremists. The views he heard didn't fit with the convictions he felt, and his company was set to leave for a training session in California before heading back to Iraq.
Logan Laituri sat in the bus, he and his colleagues headed to Honolulu airport for their flight to California. It was April 20, 9:40 in the morning. Headphones on, local Christian band Olivia playing a song called "Heaven," and his thoughts on what in the world to do about his beliefs. Then, for a moment, heaven itself seemed to open.
"I felt like somebody was showing me something," he says of the "short video clip" from above that followed.
"I saw myself in the Middle East, I'm pretty sure it was Iraq," he says, describing the emotionally vivid experience. "What struck me were two things: number one, that I did not have a weapon." The second thing was a feeling of "confidence;" the confidence that he was "doing what was right."
It was his calling. He would go to Iraq, but without a weapon. At first he thought he might be able to do that as a non-combative member of his company. So after prayer and consideration, he applied for Conscientious Objector (CO) status, as per the Army regulation allowing a soldier to request discharge for reasons of conscience, as long as military officials deem the applicant "sincere" at the end of the stipulated process. He was ready to go to prison if need be, which, in today's for-us-or-against-us climate is a real possibility for CO applicants. Major Jones says the majority of CO applications are denied.
At that point Laituri was not actually trying to leave the Army, because he saw the human anguish within military ranks, and didn't think it was Christ-like to just abandon people in need. He just wanted to have the right to refuse to bear arms.
But the military is not going to send someone to war without a weapon, and, as it turns out, it may not treat you very well if you make such a request. With re-deployment looming, Laituri's superiors dragged their feet on the CO process, missing stipulated procedural deadlines without explanation.
Laituri talks of theological discussions with commanders, hostile rumors, and bureaucratic tangles. One superior berated him, saying his actions benefitted the enemies of America an insult Laituri took as affirmation, given Jesus' invitation to love the enemy.
Military command seemed determined to stall his CO application, but they didn't want him in the battlefield either. Eventually, with his term of service drawing to a close, he was re-assigned to a detachment that would not deploy overseas. He surrendered the CO process in favor of simply letting his term of service expire.
As of October 19, Laituri became a private citizen.
- - -
Major Jones says debate about the morality of war seldom comes up in his work, and CO applications are rare. However, according to the United Church Observer, 8,000 members of the U.S. military have deserted since the Iraq war began. During World War II, nearly 43,000 Americans refused to fight for reasons of conscience, and during the Vietnam War 170,000 COs were formally recognized. In addition, 25,000 to 30,000 so-called draft dodgers fled to Canada in the Vietnam era.
Currently there are about 175 U.S. military "deserters" living illegally in Canada, hoping to escape repercussions back home. If Canada's Immigration and Refugee Board starts sending them back to the U.S., Canadian churches will have to decide whether or not to grant them sanctuary - a custom whereby churches allow certain failed refugee claimants to live on church premises where law enforcement officials are hesitant to forcibly enter to arrest someone.
Logan Laituri doesn't have to worry about fleeing his homeland now that he is out of the Army, but he does have his eyes on distant lands. He feels called to be a missionary to the Middle East. So, last Sunday he left for Israel/Palestine on a delegation with Christian Peacemaker Teams, the violence-reduction organization now famous for the four of their members abducted in Baghdad a year ago.
Not sure what someone who sounds like a cross between Noam Chomsky and an evangelical youth pastor means by "missionary," I asked what message he wants to bring to the Middle East.
"Jesus loves you. I love you," he says, proclaiming his desire to "radiate love" even if he doesn't convert a single person.
So off he goes, back to the front lines, disarmed and disarming, an "attitude of active compassion" at the ready. With the courage of a warrior and the love of God, he's living radically for Christ.
Will Braun is editor of Geez magazine (www.geezmagazine.org). A version of this article appears in the current print edition of Geez. For more, see www.cpt.org and Laituri's blog: www.xanga.com/courageouscoward . Laituri can be reached at courageouscoward [at] gmail.com. Braun can be reached at editor [at] geezmagazine.org.
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| 2006/12/8 14:12 | | IRONMAN Member
Joined: 2004/6/15 Posts: 1924 IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS
| Re: | | bro Preach P oh ok i see what you mean about fighting. there is a time for all things and we can see that for some men and women of God there indeed was a time to kill. certainly we know that it was God who killed Goliath because there is no way that any man could hurl a stone with such force and accuracy. we also see the same thing with samson, who kills 1000 philistines with a jawbone of an ass? with Uriah we know david was trying to cover up his crime so that was murder therein is the difference. i suppose the murder of uriah had something to do with david not being allowed to build the temple...at any rate our Lord is coming back and there will some butt-kicking this time... _________________ Farai Bamu
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| 2006/12/9 21:45 | Profile | Stanj Member
Joined: 2006/12/25 Posts: 3
| Re: WarI don't believe that a Christian can follow the two greatest commandments while engaged in wa | | I don't believe that a Christian can follow the two greatest commandments while engaged in war.
I think that an understanding of the two kingdoms doctrine is essantial to understanding nonresistance. Jesus told Pilate "My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world,then would my servants fight ,that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my Kingdom not from hence" |
| 2006/12/28 15:42 | Profile | IRONMAN Member
Joined: 2004/6/15 Posts: 1924 IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS
| Re: | | bro Stan
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I don't believe that a Christian can follow the two greatest commandments while engaged in war.
well i'm not so sure. on the one hand we have to be subject to the rulers of our respective nations and the laws thereof in as much as they don't conflict with God's laws. however war is necessary and serves some purpose in the grand plan of God for all things so some of us have to play that role. in the end however all the warring i believe will be a demonstartion to us that without Him, there can be no real peace at all, no system of government, democracy or otherwise which doesn't have Him at the centre can function for long before it collapses.
the bottom line is the world needs a Saviour... _________________ Farai Bamu
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| 2006/12/28 17:11 | Profile | DoulosQuinn Member
Joined: 2006/7/6 Posts: 131
| This is real good to find Bible guidelines | | I appreciate those that are burdened to bear the governments sword.
good thread |
| 2006/12/29 0:37 | Profile |
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