| Poster | Thread | jlosinski
Member
Joined: 2006/9/11
Posts: 294
North Pole, Alaska
| | War | | this seems to be worn out but I thought I would give my two cents...
I was in Iraq from Feb 2003 to Sept 2003 I was in India co. 3/5 USMC, I was a SAW gunner. I don't believe that a Christian can follow the two greatest commandments while engaged in war. I saw it for eight months, I didn't sit in Kuwait for months on end and then fight a four day war like in the first Gulf war.
If I could draw, I would draw a picture of a soldier shooting an Iraqi in the face while Jesus had His hand on the soldiers shoulder, looking on with approval. That would show the absurdity of war and the believer. Also, if a Christian isn't willing to kill to defend Christianity, why would they kill for anything less? |
|  2006/11/30 1:18 | Profile |
| | Re: War | | I was one of those who sat in Kuwait for months, and then fought a "four day war". I was in the middle of it, and I can assure you it wasnt as simple as that. Be nice if it was... but it wasnt. So please dont minimize what guys like me did there. I remember scuds going off long before the "four day war" started... and I remember crossing the border long before the "four day war" started.
Thank you for your service, by the way. Semper Fi.
Having said that, while I was in the Corp I was not saved, so I really wasnt conflicted at all. Now that I am, would I do it again? Well, I would not be honest if I didnt say that I think I would feel conflicted now. However, what are good people to do when someone like Hitler comes along and murders over 6 million Jews? Nothing? The President of Iran has vowed to wipe Israel off the map, and take us along with it. So what do we do? Nothing?
No where in the Bible does it forbid military service. In fact, Paul encouraged soldiers to fulfill their duties to those in authority over them. He didnt say "get out... war is murder". Some of the great heroes of the Bible were warriors. King David, a warrior since childhood, was considered by God to be a man after His own heart.
As you well know, no one likes war, but unfortunately as long as we live in this world it will be a part of it. Just the fact that you can come to a site like this and voice your opinion shows that you are enjoying freedoms that were bought with a price... blood.
If you yourself believe that it goes against your conscience to fight in a war, then you shouldnt. If you go against your convictions, right or wrong, you are sinning. So I not trying to convince you that being a warrior is ok... I'm just saying that your feelings on this are noble. And I'm not even sure I disagree with you completely.
As for Iraq... what a mess. But as you know, we're not getting the full story from the media. Saddam has killed many many innocent people, and that should have been our motivation for going in. I dont believe he was a threat to us militarily... I think we prooved that. I think the murderer needed to be stopped.
Bad things happen when good people do nothing.
Semper Fi.
Krispy |
| | 2006/11/30 7:38 | | IRONMAN
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Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS
| | Re: War | | Quote:
Also, if a Christian isn't willing to kill to defend Christianity, why would they kill for anything less?
that's a good question...
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Farai Bamu
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| | 2006/11/30 10:07 | Profile | IRONMAN
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Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS
| | Re: | | bro Krispy
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Having said that, while I was in the Corp I was not saved, so I really wasnt conflicted at all. Now that I am, would I do it again? Well, I would not be honest if I didnt say that I think I would feel conflicted now. However, what are good people to do when someone like Hitler comes along and murders over 6 million Jews? Nothing? The President of Iran has vowed to wipe Israel off the map, and take us along with it. So what do we do? Nothing?
you bring up a good point in that your view of things now is different than it was in the first gulf war namely you're saved now. After salvation our perspective on things should become more and more the same with God's ie seeing things in the context of His plan being fulfilled. i suppose one can wonder what if someone [i][b]had[/b][/i]taken Hitler out, or Stalin out. if you think hitler killed a lot of jews, stalin saw to the deaths of almost 4 times as many, 20 plus million, yet that is not something people talk about as much for whatever reason. the world would have been different without all that for sure, but would it fit into what God was/is doing is the main thing. For one part of all that was indeed judgement on the Jews for apostasy and the worship of the Germanic culture. however the second part is more exciting, after WW2 what happened? the Jews got a piece of their old homeland back fulfilling prophecies and reminding them that even after judgement, there is reconcilliation and restoration. God didn't spare the Jews in the old days and God hasn't changed. if even they were not spared, being His chosen people, we certainly will not escape...
so what should we do in light of such? whatever our Lord requires. Some will be called to fight and others not, at the end of the day, God's plan marches on.as long as we see things from that perspective, one can't get frustrated.
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No where in the Bible does it forbid military service. In fact, Paul encouraged soldiers to fulfill their duties to those in authority over them. He didnt say "get out... war is murder". Some of the great heroes of the Bible were warriors. King David, a warrior since childhood, was considered by God to be a man after His own heart.
indeed and if one is in the military he should fulfil his duties inasmch as they don't violate God's statutes. David indeed was a warrior but he eventually retired from fighting perhaps in his 50s. there was a battle in which he went faint and was almost killed, thereafter he was advised to chill. David being a man after God's own heart had to do with the fact that in spite of all the bad things he did, he did seek whatever God wanted him to do in all things. incidentally, it seems there are some things which having blood on your hands can keep you from, i thought that was interesting that david wasn't allowed to build the temple (though he made preparations for it) for that reason.
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As you well know, no one likes war, but unfortunately as long as we live in this world it will be a part of it. Just the fact that you can come to a site like this and voice your opinion shows that you are enjoying freedoms that were bought with a price... blood.
You know i had been pondering what it means to be free and some time ago reflected on our war of liberation in Zimbabwe from '67-'79 and it seems things have worsened. What is freedom? i am beginning to see freedom as one thing and nothing else, being reconciled to God by the blood of Christ. anything else is simply going from 1 bondage to another. to defend what we call freedom requires arms, we have thrown off one yoke and put on another. When we come to Christ we cast off the old yoke and put on His which is light and not one of bondage like the old yoke. i think of those who suffered in the communist states and still do today for Christ. They didn't have the freedoms we have here and so many were thrown in jails, murdered etc yet it seems to me they had become uncoupled to the worlds standard of what freedom was (democracy etc) and taken on Freedom in/of Christ. they may not have been allowed by law to preach Christ and when they did they got in trouble but they still preached with joy and suffered with joy because the gospel had such a gravity for them which i think we miss out on because we are "free". perhaps in all this i am beginning to see the difference in the freedoms bought by the blood of men which keep having to be defended (kinda like the old covenant where the blood of bulls and such was constantly required) and the Freedom bought by the blood of Christ which is sufficient for ALL. whoa...oh the Blood of Jesus!Freedom!FREEDOM! FREEDOM!!!
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As for Iraq... what a mess. But as you know, we're not getting the full story from the media. Saddam has killed many many innocent people, and that should have been our motivation for going in. I dont believe he was a threat to us militarily... I think we prooved that. I think the murderer needed to be stopped.
indeed we're not getting the full story from the media on Iraq. it is interesting to see the difference in what we see on say fox or cnn vs some of the overseas channels like bbc and others.it is even more interesting who has popped up and is an even bigger threat to us, North Korea will sell a nuke to anyone in a N.Y. minute, Iran will not hesitate to use one once they get it, meanwhile Iraq has us kinda bogged down...are we in a position to stop these other people now?
anyhow we could go on and on but the bottom line is this, God's plan marches on. Ephesians 3 tells us the purpose for all creation, to reveal God's manifold wisdom through the Church to the princiaplities and powers and all things work to that end whether we like it, agree with it, see it or not. it's about Him. as i see it from His perspective, God has us in Iraq right now to put a bit more strain on the economy to set it up for collapse and as i believe i heard from Him, next year. Additionally this will usher in the collapse in general of our nation, societally, militarily, and governmentally. i look forward to it because it will bring as many of us as God has called to fall on our faces and REPENT, REPENT, REPENT UNTO ETERNAL LIFE!!! This will usher in REVIVAL and i can't wait to be in the company of saints on their faces before God and being wholly about His business! Counting the days till REPENTANCE, REVIVAL then RAPTURE!!!
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Farai Bamu
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| | 2006/11/30 11:05 | Profile |
| | Re: | | A lot of people love Bonhoeffer, and he was a great theologian and took a stand for God in the face of the Nazi's... and in the end paid for it with his earthly life. What I'm not sure people are aware of is that he was involved in a plot to assasinate Adolf Hitler. It obviously failed, but that was what got him arrested.
Was he wrong? Was he in sin?
Interesting question. I dont know how to answer that. I do know that a lot of lives (not just Jews, but soldiers killed in battle, and innocent citizens of Europe) would have been spared if the attempt succeeded.
God has instituded earthly government to meat out justice. Many governments fail at this, but that doesnt mean that God's intended purpose is mute. Sometimes war is necessary. No one would argue that the main result of the American Civil War (known to us Southerners as the "War of Northern Aggression") was a good thing: the abolition of slavery in the United States. Without war it would have continued for a lot longer, and perhaps would still persist today... who knows? But it took a war to finally end it and begin the long process of [b]everyone[/b] in our country being considered created equal. That struggle still goes on today.
But as General Robert E. Lee said: "It is good that war is so terrible... lest we grow fond of it."
Krispy |
| | 2006/11/30 11:20 | | IRONMAN
Member
Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS
| | reasoning together | | bro Krispy
Quote:
A lot of people love Bonhoeffer, and he was a great theologian and took a stand for God in the face of the Nazi's... and in the end paid for it with his earthly life. What I'm not sure people are aware of is that he was involved in a plot to assasinate Adolf Hitler. It obviously failed, but that was what got him arrested.
Was he wrong? Was he in sin?
well on the one hand it's not right to kill, however if we look at the history of Israel, there is a lot of bloodshed. There may seem to be a discrepancy but the underlying issue is that God was working something, He was taking back the lands which the heathens had usurped so nobody got in trouble for that. if Bonhoeffer was led of Holy Spirit to do what he did, then it's all good. however we ought to remember that the things which may seem good and noble to us be viewed the same way by God, namely nothing, no matter how good it may seem to us is acceptable before Him unless it is inspired by Holy Spirit. The bottom line is that you're may be right in that many lives may have been spared, but you could be wrong also. i don't know and don't think that the death of Hitler would have ground the final solution to a halt. that was something which would have gone one no doubt. the flip side is that the allies even upon seeing the pics didn't do a whole lot either (at least right away)so i guess lots of blame can go around. Imagine hitler had died though. the military blunders he made would probably not have been made, perhaps russia would have been taken and then the western front opened with the russians behind germany and it's not likely the allies would have won. England may have been invaded (Hitler hesitated to launch Operation Sea Lion)and if england was taken, we would have had nowhere in europe to launch attacks on germany...maybe if hitler had died the war would have been lost...scary thought...
in the end, the issue is not really whether Bonhoeffer's idea was good, it was not even about how many lives could have been spared if it had worked and the war continued on as we know from history, its about Him. the bottom line is this, God was and is working out His plan and His ideas on how that is to go through will rub us the wrong way unless we see from His perspective. Many lives may have been spared, but how would that have benefitted what God was/is doing?
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God has instituded earthly government to meat out justice. Many governments fail at this, but that doesnt mean that God's intended purpose is mute. Sometimes war is necessary. No one would argue that the main result of the American Civil War (known to us Southerners as the "War of Northern Aggression") was a good thing: the abolition of slavery in the United States. Without war it would have continued for a lot longer, and perhaps would still persist today... who knows? But it took a war to finally end it and begin the long process of everyone in our country being considered created equal. That struggle still goes on today.
indeed every government is set up by God, whether we like the guy or not and ultimately the purpose for all this is summed up in Ephesians 3. IT'S NOT ABOUT US, IT'S ABOUT HIM. Even the War of Northern Agression as you call it :-D was about much more than slavery. in fact lincoln really didn't care whether the slaves were freed or not, he wanted to presever the union at whatever cost. in his eyes that was the deal. in God's eyes the purpose is infinately higher, it's about the revelation of His manifold wisdom through the Church and forging this country to play it's part in that. We have to start seeing everything from this perspective bro. we see the civil war had a profound effect on shaping the nation in terms of civil rights etc but ultimately God's plan marches on!
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But as General Robert E. Lee said: "It is good that war is so terrible... lest we grow fond of it."
indeed, even so wars are instruments of God to that Most Lofty, Most Magnificent and Ultimate Purpose...The revelation of His manifold wisdom of God through the Church to the principalities and powers of the air...
God bless you bro
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Farai Bamu
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| | 2006/11/30 12:50 | Profile |
| | Re: reasoning together | | Good discourse, IRONMAN... you really bring up some good points.
As far as the Hitler thing goes, I believe firmly that as incredibly horrible as all that was, God was at work. He was on the throne.
Think about this... if we are indeed in the last days (which I am convinced we are), then one of the prophecies that needed to be filled was that the Jews be back in Israel. Now, I have heard some pretty wacky opinions that what we see right now is not the real Israel... I reject that, it's a silly notion. But the fact is that since the end of WWII Jews from all over the world have been migrating to Israel.
This may not have ever happened if it had not been for WWII. Does this mean that God wanted 6 million Jews to be murdered in order to make this prophecy happen? No. But God did use this for His own divine purposes, and we can not even begin to fathom God's mind. I dont understand why God allowed that to happen, but I do know the result is His will. He fulfilled one of his promises as a result of a great evil.
And that wasnt the first time in history that God used Israel's enemies to work His will.
Some will say "God would have kept His promise with or without WWII." This is true, but the fact remains, WWII is the way He chose to work it out. Whats done is done.
I know I'm kinda getting off point here. By the way, you're absolutely right about Lincoln. It's amazing how our public school systems have brainwashed people into thinking that the Civil War was all about slavery. For better or for worse, it wasnt the main issue. And Lincoln was no abolishionist before the war. It was a rallying point in the middle of the war. He was losing support of the general population at that point because my ancestors were whippin' up on 'em pretty bad. Then came the Emancipation Proclamation... and then Gettysburg... and the momentum shifted.
The war ended the right way for America. No doubt about that. But hind-sight is 20-20.
Krispy |
| | 2006/11/30 13:15 | | IRONMAN
Member
Joined: 2004/6/15
Posts: 1924
IN HEAVENLY PLACES WITH JESUS
| | Re: | | bro Krispy
Quote:
Good discourse, IRONMAN... you really bring up some good points.
thanks bro, as you do.This is why i bless God for you and the other saints on S.I. God ministers to us all through us all to His glory! bro i have learned so much more from these couple of yrs on S.I. than i have at any other time.
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As far as the Hitler thing goes, I believe firmly that as incredibly horrible as all that was, God was at work. He was on the throne.
Indeed and this is the bottom line, God was on His throne and at work to do what He saw fit to do.
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Think about this... if we are indeed in the last days (which I am convinced we are), then one of the prophecies that needed to be filled was that the Jews be back in Israel. Now, I have heard some pretty wacky opinions that what we see right now is not the real Israel... I reject that, it's a silly notion. But the fact is that since the end of WWII Jews from all over the world have been migrating to Israel.
oh indeed bro we are in the last days! Although the land Israel sits on now is much smaller than the original expanse given it by God, the fact remains that those are her lands of old. Now at this time Israel has not come to know Messiah so she is not yet 100% as she ought to be but God's plan to see that to fruition is on track and marching on. His people have been moving back home and continue to do so.
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This may not have ever happened if it had not been for WWII. Does this mean that God wanted 6 million Jews to be murdered in order to make this prophecy happen? No. But God did use this for His own divine purposes, and we can not even begin to fathom God's mind. I dont understand why God allowed that to happen, but I do know the result is His will. He fulfilled one of his promises as a result of a great evil.
AMEN bro, our Lord certainly did use the death of of all those people Jew and gentile alike to see His plan through.
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And that wasnt the first time in history that God used Israel's enemies to work His will.
and so you beginning to see what the deal is!
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Some will say "God would have kept His promise with or without WWII." This is true, but the fact remains, WWII is the way He chose to work it out. Whats done is done.
and this is the thing right here which underlines the fact that it's not about us, it's about HIM.
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I know I'm kinda getting off point here. By the way, you're absolutely right about Lincoln. It's amazing how our public school systems have brainwashed people into thinking that the Civil War was all about slavery. For better or for worse, it wasnt the main issue. And Lincoln was no abolishionist before the war. It was a rallying point in the middle of the war. He was losing support of the general population at that point because my ancestors were whippin' up on 'em pretty bad. Then came the Emancipation Proclamation... and then Gettysburg... and the momentum shifted.
oh yeah the civil war was a very complicated issue and like you said, it ended right because it ended the way it did and more importantly, His plan keeps marching on...
God bless you bro
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Farai Bamu
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| | 2006/11/30 14:35 | Profile | PreachParsly
Member
Joined: 2005/1/14
Posts: 2164
Arkansas
| | Re: | | Here is a thread I stated some time ago that provoked a lot of discussion.
[url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/newbb/viewtopic.php?viewmode=flat&order=0&topic_id=7499&forum=36&post_id=&refresh=Go]This is war??!![/url]
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Josh Parsley
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| | 2006/11/30 15:05 | Profile | Rahman
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Joined: 2004/3/24
Posts: 1374
| | Re: War ... What Is It Good For? ... | | Hi guys ...
i originally posted this on bro Krisp's thread ...
Abu Musab Al-Zarqawi Killed in Bombing Raid
... from some thoughts i had about THE BATTLE HYMN OF THE REPUBLIC ...
Glory, glory, hallelujah! Glory, glory, hallelujah! Glory, glory, hallelujah! His truth is marching on.
(hope you don't mind my reposting this portion here)
--- Quote;
i like history a whole lot, and am always fascinated that like the words of the Battle Hymn of the Republic as we men vie back and forth with one another be it verbally, or with sticks, stones, swords, shields, ships, guns, cannons, bombs, airplanes, rockets or nuclear weapons, His truth, His plan, His will goes marching on ...
i also am fascinated by the fact that somehow many folk think that what we "will" as men is somehow apart, seperate and above His "will" ... i certainly don't claim to understand how "man's will" operates within the confines of "His will" for as of late i've really been brought to the point of understanding that i don't really understand the workings of the Father at all, but personally i believe that nothing happens apart from the will of God, that somehow every event that transpires on this planet down to the death of a sparrow and below all serves toward His ultimate purpose and goal, and therefore i see the hand of a really long-suffering God in everything ...
The problem with we humans is that we can see His hands in what we think we understand Him having His hand in, but we argue, debate, fuss and fight with one another about what we can't see Him having His hand in ... So therefore even amongst saints we have those who vote because of God, and those who don't, those who enlist in military service to their country because of God, and those who don't ... The list is as endless as our debate, but in the meanwhile whether we agree or disagree God and His plan are ever marching on ... Some would say in spite of us (as i've often said), but actually it's because of us and via us that His plan keeps on marching ... All this crap that every generation from the fall is going thru (including now terrorism and the war in Iraq) has stemmed from one man and one woman's putting humanity at enmity not only with God, but with one another ... God the Father provided His Son to bridge the enmity gap between Him and us, which if we as individuals exemplified Christ to the fullest could even bridge that gap between one another - but it's obvious that we don't, even in Christ, for tho we're suppose to be we don't operate in the accord of oneness (how many denominations do we have?) ... So even we saints go back and forth in debate about matters of "is God of this" or "of that", while the plan, and more importantly the ultimate solution (the fulfilled Revelation) of God, on the backs of mankind, governments, and our international conflicts go marching on! ...
The Battle Hymn was written as a stab of explanation for the "judgment" of the Civil War that came upon this nation due to it's Federal governmentally sanctioned enslavement of an entire group of people toward the financial benefit of the nation ... Thus this stanza in reference to the Union soldiers, "As He (Christ) died to make men holy, let us die to make men free" ... This seems like a pretty noble cause, and even back then the debate amongst saints as to military service or not raged on, but it certainly did not stop God's march on to the Revelaton's fulfilment because even after this came both WWI (with saints still debating) and then WWII which argubley was probably the last war America could justify as solely a fight to keep men free ...
Tho this may not make a lot of sense to some, i'm one who has come to believe that God does have a plan for each of us in our lives ... i also believe that (due to OT accounts) His hand may rest harder on some than on others, as i certainly believe this to be the case with me when i look back on my life ... i didn't have to worry about enlisting in the military (tho i wanted to be an airman) because i was raised JW (they don't do war) by a father whom i loved so much that it took me to age 28 to really rebel against ... When i was 17 i sat before a Selective Service Board as a CO, and after my JW tutored answers to their questions was given an "extreme hardship" status and was defered from service ... Was this by accident or by His design for my life? ... Was i just lucky to be born into an adamant JW household or did God in fact know exactly where He wanted me to be placed? ... God knows that had it been otherwise i probably would have been drafted, sent to Vietnam and more than likely killed ... In my subsequent dealings with our Lord i believe He saved me from that, toward something He has for me yet to do ...
i think the problem with us is this ... History (even that which has not transpired yet) is His-story ... God knows exactly where everything and everybody is going, and whether we're saved or heathen, pacifist or warrior, or whatever, His plan rides atop all that we do, or don't do, and both facilitates His ultimate plan as time goes marching on ... Now in the midst of entertaining the mind-boggling brevity of the will/plan of God ask yourself what is my-story (which is the my-stery) in His-story, for i totally believe finding this out should be the ultimate quest of every Christians ...
My bottom line is to know His ultimate purpose for my life, tho how He gets me there i haven't the slightest idea, but in the meanwhile i do what only any of us can do and that's to continue to walk in the faith place we're all presently at ... We can do no more or less ... My final comments have to do only with what many saints call the grey areas like voting and military service ...
i believe that if ones faith presently tells them to vote, or not to vote, then one should follow their faith ... i believe that if one's faith tells them to serve militarily for their country, or not, then one should follow their faith ... i'm a firm believer in the scripture that says "whatsoever is not of faith in sin", and that all that we do, or don't do, should be because of God ...
As during the time of the Civil War i believe America (mainly because the salt has lost its savor) is at the onset of His judgment/correction for continuing down the broad and spacious ... And i thank God that no matter what we think, don't think, agree or dis-agree on, His plan just keeps on marching on till His will is done on earth as it already is in heaven ...
Men have a tendency to think that our wars have all to do with us but i think there's more than meets the eye with this verse of The Battle Hymn ...
"He is trampling out the vintage where the grapes of wrath are stored; He hath loosed the fateful lightening of His terrible swift sword "
We all know the OT history of how God uses nation against nation, in Ezek. 38 He speaks of putting hooks in the jaws of Magog to lead them as He wants, and in the Revelation it says He gathers the nations to the place of Har-meggedon ... What is our puny "self-will" in comparrison to His "divine-will"? ---
The commandment says to the people of God, "Thou shalt not murder", not "kill" ... But alas both are a part of this life, and God knows if anyone was attempting to murder/kill me (and mine) and i could do anything to prevent it including killing them first they'd be dead (if anyone has a problem with this pray for me, for i've said before i have trouble with turning the other cheek) ...
And for anyone to condemn the salvation of a saint who happens to be a soldier, or police, is just straight up ridiculous to me, for the same folk in time of trouble will be quick to seek out either ...
Also as much as many saints don't want to face it God has a long history after the fall of man of either killing folks by His own hand, orchestrating it by the hands of others (even of, by and to His own), or allowing the devil himself as in the case of Jobs children, and killing won't cease until after He wipes out all those who will fall for satan's crap anew after his final release after the 1,000 year reign ... So to me making sure we're right with Jesus, because we don't even know what God has in store for us in how we leave here, is best! ...
"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell" - Matt. 10:28
Dying in Jesus is but a short agony ...
Dying outside of Him ... Yikes!
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| | 2006/11/30 15:36 | Profile |
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