| Poster | Thread |
| | Re: | | I'm going to restrain from fully emersing into this debate. Right now, I'm dedicated to study theology more then I talk about theology.
But I do want to comment on this scripture since you brought it up.
Quote:
for as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners: so also through the obedience of the one, shall the many be constituted righteous. (Rom 5:19 YNG)
If you are going to apply the first half of the verse "many were constituted sinners" universally and unconditionally, to say all inherit a sinful nature through Adam, then you must also apply the second half of the verse universally and unconditionally, to say that all will inherit eternal life because of Jesus Christ. To use this scripture for universal original sin, you also fall into the trap of universal justification!
There is no way to apply the first half universally and unconditionally and not apply the second half universally and unconditionally, without being theologically biased in your interpretation. Scriptures are re-interpreted and applied according to your pre-committed theology.
But both parts of that single verse must be applied conditionally. To become a sinner you must meet the condition of sin. To inherit eternal life you must meet the condition of repentance and faith.
But what this verse doesn't mention at all is a "sinful nature" nor anyones "birth".
"Constitute" is often used as though it meant metaphysically, but there is no reason to believe that at all. If "constitute" applied metaphysically for sin, then it would have to also metaphysically apply for righteousness!
So if you use this verse to believe in a physical sinful nature, then you would have to accept a notion that a Christian recieves a physical righteous nature. That would be a logical conclusion using your interpretation.
And to metaphysically apply the first half to sin BUT NOT metphysically apply the second half to righteousness reveals a theological bias, a precommitment to an already accepted theological system.
Also, though this translation says "constituted" the KJV uses the word "made". So it reads that many were "made sinners". Often, this is used as an arguement to say you are made a sinner despite your will. But "made" here is also used in multiple other places in the New Testament, and never does it imply "without will".
For example, being made a deacon or an elder in the Church. Though they are "made a deacon" or are "made an elder" being "made" is not against their will. Rather, it is with his will, but even so he must meet the qualification conditions. You are not made a deacon or made an elder unconditionally.
We need a reformation back to the early Church. Before Augustine, the Church had no doctrine of original sin, that says all humans are born with a sinful nature because of Adam. Before Augustine, such a notion was no where in the early Church.
Rather, you see the early Church fathers speak of mans free will and mans original ability.
We need a reformation back to the theology of the early Church. |
|  2006/12/15 7:01 | | RobertW
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Joined: 2004/2/12
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St. Joseph, Missouri
| | Re: | | Quote:
If you are going to apply the first half of the verse "many were constituted sinners" universally and unconditionally, to say all inherit a sinful nature through Adam, then you must also apply the second half of the verse universally and unconditionally, to say that all will inherit eternal life because of Jesus Christ. To use this scripture for universal original sin, you also fall into the trap of universal justification!
This is not the case because folk are 'born' in Adam, they are 'Born Again' in Christ. The key is 'in' Christ. IF any man be 'in Christ' he is a new creature, all things have passed away and behold all things are become new. What Christ has done has been captured (as it were) in the Eternal Spirit. Hebrews tell us, [i]how much more shall the blood of Christ who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God...[/i] What Christ did on the Cross is appropriated to the sinner by grace through faith. It is not a universal appropriation. in Adam all die, but in Christ shall all men be made alive (I Cor 15:22). The key word again is '[b]in[/b]'. We are either 'in' Adam or we are 'in Christ.' We are born 'in' Adam and we are born again when we are baptized by the Holy Spirit 'in' (to) 'Christ'.
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Robert Wurtz II
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| | 2006/12/15 9:08 | Profile | GraceAlone
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| | Re: | | Amen RobertW.
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Kristy
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| | 2006/12/15 10:34 | Profile | philologos
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Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK
| | Re: | | Quote:
So if you use this verse to believe in a physical sinful nature, then you would have to accept a notion that a Christian recieves a physical righteous nature. That would be a logical conclusion using your interpretation.
I am not quite sure what you mean by 'physical' in this context. I certainly don't believe it is in the genes. If you mean that a Christian receives a new righteous nature at regeneration, I plead guilty.
I long ago rejected the notion of two natures subsisting in the regenerate.
The word used here for 'made' as in 'made sinners' is [url=http://www.blueletterbible.org/cgi-bin/strongs.pl?hr=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.blueletterbibl]kathistEmi[/url]. It means to 'establish as' or to 'put in the place of'. 'many' were placed in the category of 'sinners' as a result of the offence of one man and 'many' are placed in the category of 'righteous' as the result of the achievement of one man. To say that this would mean automatic 'righteousness' to the whole race is plainly not what this scripture is saying and would run counter to so much other scriptural revelation.
I have still not had any responses to my continuing question to those who doubt 'congenital sin' so here it is again. 'How does a man get to be 'in Adam' and how does a man get to be 'in Christ'? and is there any doubt that these two conditions are mutually exclusive?
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We need a reformation back to the early Church. Before Augustine, the Church had no doctrine of original sin, that says all humans are born with a sinful nature because of Adam. Before Augustine, such a notion was no where in the early Church.
You err not knowing the scriptures nor the history of the church.
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Ron Bailey
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| | 2006/12/15 10:35 | Profile | Logic
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Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791
| | Re: | | Quote:
dorcas wrote:
AshleyJnr said
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Isn't physical death a wage of sin?
If a baby has no sin why is it possible for it to physically die?
Logic, I believe this is a very fair question.... It strikes right at the heart of the issue - that eternal life is the [b]gift of God[/b] to those who have no sin, because they have accepted the death of Christ and been raised in Him to new life.
[b]1John 1:8[/b] [color=990000]If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.[/color]
This was writen to Christians, therefore your statement is off.
The truth is that we are not accountable for our sin even thought we have sin and that is what makes us blaimless.
[b]Jude 1:24[/b] [color=990000]Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you with out blame before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,[/color]
[b]Romans 5:12[/b] [color=990000]because of this, even as through one man [b]the sin[/b] did enter into the world, and through [b]the sin[/b] the death; and thus to all men the death did pass through, for that all did sin;[/color]
The Greek Specific Artical directs to the specific Noune that follows it.
The Specific Sin is that disobediance which verse [b]14[/b] sais "Adam's transgression".
The Specific "death" is that what God condemned Adam with, "you shall surly die"(physical death) [b]Gen 2:17[/b].
[b]Romans 5:13-14[/b] [color=990000]for until the Law, sin was in the world, but sin is not taken into account as there not being law yet.
[b]14:[/b] but the death[/color](physical) [color=990000]did reign from Adam till Moses, even upon those not having sinned in the likeness of Adam's transgression, who is a type of him who is coming.[/color]
If the sin is not being accounted for, there would be no "spiritual" conemnation, but only physical.
This also teaches that Adam's sin was not the sin of Adams descendants: "Them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression."
Those that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression were most certainly sinners.
However, their sin was different from the sin of Adam. They sinned way before Moses even gave the law, and had only sinned against the law of their conscience(Romans 1:18-20 & 2:14-15).
Furhtermore, the fact that Paul says they "had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression" shows that Paul did not consider that God put the guilt of Adam's sin to their account.
[b]Romans 5:17-19[/b] [color=990000][u]for if by[/u] the offence of the one the death did reign through the one, [u]much more those,[/u] who the abundance of the grace and of the free gift of the righteousness are receiving, in life shall reign through the one--Jesus Christ.
[b]:18[/b] [u]So, then, as through[/u] one offence to all men [it is] to condemnation, [u]so also through[/u] one declaration of `Righteous' [it is] to all men to justification of life;
[b]:19[/b] [/u]for as through[/u] the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners: [u]so also through[/u] the obedience of the one, shall the many be constituted righteous.[/color]
In these verses,Paul is comparing between Adam and Christ.
Furthermore, interpret the phrase "made sinners" to mean that men are born sinners and became sinners involuntarily and receiving a sinful nature from Adam; You must also use that same logic to the term "made righteous" since He was sllain from the foundation of the world([b]Revelation 13:8b[/b]).
(men are born righteous and became righteous involuntarily and receiving a righteous nature from Christ)
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I believe you need to read a previous thread called 'What is sin?' to find philologos's explanation of Young's meaning in 'did sin'. It is different from eventually sinned when they were old enough.
Please, give a link to that thread?
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philologos wrote:
Romans 5:12 speaks of an event which impacted the whole race. It says that the person who committed the sin was Adam. Why not Eve? What does it mean to be 'in Adam'?
Yes, Eve was the first one to eat of it, but Adam was the one accountable to God. Eve was accountable to her husband, Adam.
Eve was deceived but Adam must have wanted to eat of it in the first place, otherwise he would have stopped his wife from sinning.
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[b]1Corinth 15:22[/b] [color=990000]For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.[/color]
...and how do we get to be 'in Adam' or 'in Christ'? The two states are apparently mutually exclusive.
This "in Christ" is by faith, so therefore, "in Adam" is by default and from no faith in Christ.
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[color=990000]because of this, even as through one man the sin did enter into the world, and through the sin the death; and thus to all men the death did pass through, for that all did sin;[/color] (Rom 5:12 YNG)
That 'thus' captured here by Youngs is 'houtOs' which means 'consequently'. The second is the inevitable consequence of the first. ie The Death passing through to all men is the inevitable consequence of The Sin entering the world. The consequence of Adam's transgression, not Eve's, was that 'the many were made sinners'...
The meaning to this is that Adam is the first to sin and because of that, physical death came.
Thus physical death passed through to every one because all(even until now) sinned.
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[color=990000]for as through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners: so also through the obedience of the one, shall the many be constituted righteous.[/color] (Rom 5:19 YNG)
This verse is saying very plainly that something happened to 'many' as the result of the behaviour of 'one man'. This is the human race, in Adam.
That something which happend is the "vanity"(transientness) and the "corruption" that God made creation subject to.(Romans 8:20-21)
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RobertW wrote:
Quote:
If you are going to apply the first half of the verse "many were constituted sinners" universally and unconditionally, to say all inherit a sinful nature through Adam, then you must also apply the second half of the verse universally and unconditionally, to say that all will inherit eternal life because of Jesus Christ. To use this scripture for universal original sin, you also fall into the trap of universal justification!
This is not the case because folk are 'born' in Adam, they are 'Born Again' in Christ. The key is 'in' Christ. IF any man be 'in Christ' he is a new creature, all things have passed away and behold all things are become new. What Christ has done has been captured (as it were) in the Eternal Spirit. Hebrews tell us, [i]how much more shall the blood of Christ who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God...[/i] What Christ did on the Cross is appropriated to the sinner by grace through faith. It is not a universal appropriation. in Adam all die, but in Christ shall all men be made alive (I Cor 15:22). The key word again is '[b]in[/b]'. We are either 'in' Adam or we are 'in Christ.' We are born 'in' Adam and we are born again when we are baptized by the Holy Spirit 'in' (to) 'Christ'.
I have still not had any responses to my continuing question to those who doubt 'congenital sin' so here it is again. 'How does a man get to be 'in Adam' and how does a man get to be 'in Christ'? and is there any doubt that these two conditions are mutually exclusive?
[b]1Corinth 15:22[/b] [color=990000]For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.[/color]
As I said earlyer, this is of faith and that by our will, not forced apon us.
This "in Christ" is by faith, so therefore, "in Adam" is by default and from no faith in Christ. |
| | 2006/12/16 13:01 | Profile | philologos
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Posts: 6566
Reading, UK
| | Re: | | Quote:
Romans 5:12 because of this, even as through one man the sin did enter into the world, and through the sin the death; and thus to all men the death did pass through, for that all did sin;
The Greek Specific Artical directs to the specific Noune that follows it.
The Specific Sin is that disobediance which verse 14 sais "Adam's transgression".
I have dabbled in the Greek a little myself over the years but I have no idea what this statement of yours means. Please quote your sources. Are you referring to the definite article?
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Ron Bailey
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| | 2006/12/16 14:11 | Profile | Logic
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Posts: 1791
| | Re: | | Quote:
philologos wrote:
Quote:
Romans 5:12 because of this, even as through one man the sin did enter into the world, and through the sin the death; and thus to all men the death did pass through, for that all did sin;
The Greek Specific Artical directs to the specific Noune that follows it.
The Specific Sin is that disobediance which verse 14 sais "Adam's transgression".
I have dabbled in the Greek a little myself over the years but I have no idea what this statement of yours means. Please quote your sources.
Common scene.Quote:
Are you referring to the definite article?
Yes, as you are also. |
| | 2006/12/16 14:44 | Profile | PreachParsly
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| | Re: | |
Did you mean common sense? To be honest, you have lost me on that thought also. If you meant common sense, that doesn't make any sense to me. It isn't common for an English speaking person to know about Greek articles.
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Josh Parsley
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| | 2006/12/16 15:40 | Profile | Logic
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Posts: 1791
| | Re: | | Sorry for the confusion, let me explain:
Quote:
philologos wrote:
[color=0000ff]because of this, even as through one man the sin did enter into the world, and through the sin the death; and thus to all men the death did pass through, for that all did sin; (Rom 5:12 YNG)[/color]
That 'thus' captured here by Youngs is 'houtOs' which means 'consequently'. The second is the inevitable consequence of the first. i.e. [b]The[/b] Death passing through to all men is the inevitable consequence of [b]The[/b] Sin entering the world. The consequence of Adam's transgression, not Eve's, was that 'the many were made sinners'...
Emphasis mine
You capitalized the words "The Death" & "The Sin"
Therefore, you were pointing out that the "Death & Sin" are specific.
All I did was point out what the specific Death & Sin was.
Since some versions don't have the specific article before Death & Sin, I went to the Greek which has the specific article and put them in context useing common sense. |
| | 2006/12/16 15:58 | Profile | PreachParsly
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| | Re: | |
Quote:
Therefore, you were pointing out that the "Death & Sin" are specific.
All I did was point out what the specific Death & Sin was.
I believe those that hold a view point similar to Ron's will say that "Death and Sin" are personified, so there is no question to "what" the sin or death is. When you personify something it turns into a "who" not a "what." In other words in that view Death and Sin are not actions but entities.
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Josh Parsley
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| | 2006/12/16 23:43 | Profile |
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