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Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:

GraceAlone wrote:
Then why does EVERYBODY sin?

The same reason Satan & Adam sinned, they choose to.

Why does theire need to be a fault other than ourselves?

[b]Romans 5:19[/b] [color=990000][b]For as by one man’s[/b] disobedience many were made sinners, [b]so also by one Man’s[/b] obedience many will be made righteous.[/color]
Remember this is a verse of comprison:

If by one man’s disobedience all humanity were made with a sinful nature with your interpritation
Then
by one Man’s obedience, all humanity was made with a righteous nature.
But
This is only showing how much greater Jesus is to Adam.

Quote:
If we say only our individual acts of sin condemn us we also say that only our individual acts of righteousness save us.


Yes!
But what is that one individual act of righteousness that saves us?

It is accepting the sacrifice that Jesus paid on the cross, along with His resurrection so that He will take our place of judgment.

 2006/12/26 19:58Profile
GraceAlone
Member



Joined: 2006/8/23
Posts: 232
Orlando, Florida

 Re:

Quote:
Quote:
If we say only our individual acts of sin condemn us we also say that only our individual acts of righteousness save us.



Yes!
But what is that one individual act of righteousness that saves us?

It is accepting the sacrifice that Jesus paid on the cross, along with His resurrection so that He will take our place of judgment.



"Us accepting Christ" doesn't save us that would be working for salvation. We do not have any GOOD WORK of our own TO MERIT SALVATION. ALL we have is Christ ALONE.

It is God giving us the ability to have faith in Christ so that He accept us.


_________________
Kristy

 2006/12/26 20:51Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:

GraceAlone wrote:

"Us accepting Christ" doesn't save us that would be working for salvation. We do not have any GOOD WORK of our own TO MERIT SALVATION. ALL we have is Christ ALONE.

It is God giving us the ability to have faith in Christ so that He accept us.



Say, you were sinking in quicksand and one comes along to save you.

You must put your hand out for Him to grab, fruthermore, you must hold on.
[b]Hebrews 4:11[/b] [color=990000]Let us [b]labour[/b] therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.[/color]

This is the work I wa stalking about.

 2006/12/26 21:06Profile
JaySaved
Member



Joined: 2005/7/11
Posts: 1132
Missouri

 Re:

Logic said in response to Romans 5:12 (ESV) "Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned--"

Quote:
Bad translation.
Actualy it is: Romans 5:12 For this reason, even as through one man sin entered into the world, and through sin death; and thus death passed through [or, extended] to all people, on which all have sinned.



When asked to explain his using a translation that changed 'all men sinned' to 'on which all have sinned', Logic states:

Quote:
I usualy use the greek to mix translations for best accuracy.



I listed 5 reputable translations (1 if you are a KJV only) that refute your 'translation'. Honestly, who do you think you are that you can change the meaning of scripture to fit your theology?

Logic also said:
Quote:
Prove that all men became spiritually dead.



First read Ephesians 2:1-3
1And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. "

Why do you think this says that we were quickened? Why do you think it says that we were dead? Were we physically dead? That would be absurd, we were spiritually dead.

But, I know what you are thinking. 'We were dead because we choose to sin.' But you fail to see the obvious conclusion. All men sin because all men are spiritually dead. It is not our sin that makes us sinners by nature, we are sinners by nature and therefore we sin.

Please listen to GraceAlone when she says,
Quote:
Then why does EVERYBODY sin?



Have you wondered why we have only one example of a person living a life without sin? Nobody but Jesus (who was God in human flesh) could do it. NOBODUM Jesus didn't have Original Sin because He was born of God.

Please pray over these words that God may open your eyes to the truth. I love you brother Logic.

 2006/12/26 21:32Profile
GraceAlone
Member



Joined: 2006/8/23
Posts: 232
Orlando, Florida

 Re:

Quote:
Have you wondered why we have only one example of a person living a life without sin? Nobody but Jesus (who was God in human flesh) could do it. NOBODUM Jesus didn't have Original Sin because He was born of God.
Please pray over these words that God may open your eyes to the truth. I love you brother Logic.



I think you should really consider what he is saying logic.





So are you saying that we merit our salvation by taking hold of God?

Isaiah 64:7
And there is NO ONE who calls on Your name, Who stirs himself up to take hold of You; For You have hidden Your face from us, And have consumed us because of our iniquities.

LOL. All glory goes to God. Even your faith.


_________________
Kristy

 2006/12/26 21:36Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:

JaySaved wrote:
Logic said in response to Romans 5:12 (ESV) "Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned--"


There is still no diference.

Quote:
I listed 5 reputable translations (1 if you are a KJV only) that refute your 'translation'. Honestly, who do you think you are that you can change the meaning of scripture to fit your theology?


I am far from KJV only.

Where did I change the meaning of scripture?

I actualy change my theology to fit scripture.

Quote:
1And you hath he quickened, [b]who were dead in trespasses and sins[/b]; 2Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others."



People forget that they tend to use adults or people who are of age to understand sin and rebelion as their examples for their stance on this topic.

Are infants dead in trespasses and sins?
They never "walked according to the course of this world"
They barely started yet.

Quote:
But, I know what you are thinking. 'We were dead because we choose to sin.' But you fail to see the obvious conclusion. All men sin because all men are spiritually dead. It is not our sin that makes us sinners by nature, we are sinners by nature and therefore we sin.



You have not yet proved this conclusion, Though I have proven mine.

Disprove me then your view will come to light.

Quote:
Have you wondered why we have only one example of a person living a life without sin? Nobody but Jesus (who was God in human flesh) could do it. NOBODUM Jesus didn't have Original Sin because He was born of God.


Have you ever concidered that He didn't sin because He is God and we sin not because of "original sin" but only because we aren't God?

Quote:
Please pray over these words that God may open your eyes to the truth. I love you brother Logic.



How do you think I came to this understanding.
Have you prayed and read with out preconcieved theology, that you have not learnd from another, but form the Scripturse with out bias?

I once thought as you, but I've always wondered about the justice in "original sin".
I prayed and prayed more until I came to understand.

Please, go back and re-read [b]all[/b] of what I have to say with [b]out bias[/b], forgeting what was taught.

When you read with out preconcieved theology and with out bias for all times, you might confirm what you've learned and sometimes, you find the truth.

 2006/12/26 22:01Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:

GraceAlone wrote:
So are you saying that we merit our salvation by taking hold of God?


[b]Hebrews 4:11 [color=990000]Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest[/b], lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.[/color]
Is this "labour" a merit to our salvation by taking hold of God

 2006/12/26 22:05Profile
GraceAlone
Member



Joined: 2006/8/23
Posts: 232
Orlando, Florida

 Re:

Quote:
Have you ever concidered that He didn't sin because He is God and we sin not because of "original sin" but only because we aren't God?

We sin because we are sinners. We freely choose to sin. Our nature is depraved because we were made sinners when Adam sinned and are unable to do good.

Quote:
Hebrews 4:11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Amen. We work because God works in us. Phil 2:13 for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure. What of the verse in Isaiah?

i. total inability
a. man cannot do the good
(i) Matthew 7:17-18; Christ says a bad tree bears bad fruit and cannot bear good fruit.
(ii) 1 Cor 12:3; Only by the spirit can somebody submit to Jesus as Lord.
(iii) John 15:4-5; You cannot bear fruit apart from Christ.
(iv) Romans 8:7-8; in the flesh you cannot please God and the carnal mind is hostile toward God and cannot be subject to God's law
b. man cannot understand the good
(i) Acts 16:14; only after God gave Lydia an open heart to give heed to Paul.
(ii) Eph 4:18; understanding is darkened
(iii) 2 Cor 3:12-18; a veil over thier hearts.
(iv) John 1:5; darkness doesn't comprehend the light.
(v) John 8:43; They cannot understand because they are not able.
(vi) Matthew 13:14; Hearing they will never understand.
(vii) 1 Cor 1:18, 21; 2:4; without the spirit a man cannot understand the things of God.
c. man cannot desire the good
(i) Matthew 7:18 They are unable by nature.
(ii) John 3:3; 6:44-55; 8:43; 15:4-5; They cannot and are unable.
(iii) Ezeikiel 11:19; heart of stone
(iv) 2 Cor 5:17; Gal 6:15; must be a new creation.
(v) Col 2:13; Dead in sins.
(vi) Eph 2:1, 5; Dead in sins.


_________________
Kristy

 2006/12/26 23:01Profile
Logic
Member



Joined: 2005/7/17
Posts: 1791


 Re:

Quote:
GraceAlone wrote:
Our nature is depraved because we were made sinners when Adam sinned and are unable to do good.

We made ourseves sinners.
Why will you not undersatnd?

I have made clear, but you refuse to take heed.

 2006/12/26 23:34Profile
philologos
Member



Joined: 2003/7/18
Posts: 6566
Reading, UK

 Re:

by Logic on 2006/12/23 16:30:39

Quote:
Why is there only a diference with us, that we must have a "sin natuer" to sin?

Who said you have to have a sin-nature in order to sin?


Quote:
Please don't be rediculous.

It is but you musent take it literaly.


The whole point of Hebrews is to show that Christ's mediatorship and covenant is superior to any that preceeded it. If you relegate this part to 'non -literal' interpretation, why not do the same with his taking on the seed of Abraham, becoming flesh etc. Your interpretation of this single passage shows your willingness to duck and weave simply to satisfy your own opinions.


Quote:
If we are not in Christ, what other is there to be "in"?
There is only Christ or Adam.
Therefore being "in Adam" is by default if not "in Christ".


This is quite illogical. We might be in Noah or any other common ancestor. But Romans keeps us fixed on that 'one man' who acted as our representative and who determined the nature of the human race until another 'man' appeared to co-crucify that 'old man' and begin a new race of those 'in Christ'.


Quote:
Quote:
philologos wrote:
The implication of this, of course, is that every individual sin I commit puts me straight back 'into Adam'. This is Finneyism with a vengeance!



This is an error;
[b]1John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:


My objections are not with John but with the inevitable consequences of a teaching that a single sin puts us into the exact condition of Adam. If a single sin does so our whole Christian condition is subject to constant oscillation. This is nonsense.


Quote:
Quote:
philologos wrote:
“Let his heart be changed from man’s, and let a beast’s heart be given unto him; and let seven times pass over him.” (Dan 4:16 KJVS) The consequence of this 'change of heart' was that the king began to behave like a beast. Behaving like a beast would not 'change his heart' but having a 'beast's heart' changed his behaviour.

If our nature stems from our heart, Haveing a law from God put in our heart would show that our nature is not corupted.


You are missing the whole significance of...
[color=0000ff]“I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.” (Ezek 36:26-27 NKJV)[/color]

You would do well to consider this microcosm of regeneration. You will notice the order in which God declares it. It includes the removal of the old heart before the arrival of the new, followed by 'new spirit' AND God's own Spirit. This is a total renewal of the inner man which is necessitated because of the incurable nature of the 'old heart'. [color=0000ff]“Crooked [is] the heart above all things, And it [is] incurable — who doth know it?” (Jer 17:9 YNG)[/color] Here the Spirit of God in Jeremiah puts His finger right on the spot. That 'old heart' in incurable, hence the need for a new one.

Christ's words make little sense if your assertions are correct...[color=0000ff]“Brood of vipers! How can you, being evil, speak good things? For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.” (Matt 12:34 NKJV)[/color] If anything showed the need for a new heart, this statement does.


_________________
Ron Bailey

 2006/12/27 7:16Profile





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