| Poster | Thread | Compton
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Joined: 2005/2/24
Posts: 2732
| | Re: | | Quote:
It's hard to fall when you on your face'.
That's a great quote lovegrace.
Like Mattie indicated, many deficits in the character of the body are being brough to light in dramatic ways. Ted Haggard is a thermostat telling us about the American Church.
One aspect of this 'scandal' that bears emphasizing is the isolation of the American saint. This is another way Ted Haggard symbolizes the church. Like most Christians he interacted momentarily and spurriously with other believers in very controlled programed environments. Just like natural families, American church familes come and go to and from the house at will, eating quickly, talking briefly, and rarely knowing one another. (Perhaps home fellowships are an exception...)
I think our independence is related to our lukewarmness...Quoting Art Katz qoting Shakespeare...
Conscience doth make cowards of us all."
We know what honesty and transparency will cost us.
Perhaps one of the dynamics the Lord will bring into our churches is real interdependency...no more self-reliance spiritually, emotionally, and economically. In exchange for our independence we find new abiding in the love of Christ for one another...on a level that would make our present churches blush. Imagine the wonders that God could do among a people who share not just doctrine and politics, but real things.
Sanctify yourselves: for tomorrow the Lord will do wonders among you
MC
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Mike Compton
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|  2006/11/14 22:32 | Profile | searchin
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Joined: 2006/10/18
Posts: 125
u.s.a. /
| | Re: | | great points...as for the comparison with David & Bethsheba.
you don't have an affair, find out you are pregnant and send the husband of to war after trying to get him to sleep with his wife to conceal the sin and then have him killed overnight! some time went by with david too...all the while he continued his role as king.
and moses killed an egyptian before he became the great deliverer of God's people.
i had lunch with several pastors a few years ago and they discussed similiar prominent ministries that had fallen into sin and publicly repented. one pastor said that this certain minister was, to him, like king Saul. who had sinned and God rejected. the first thing i asked was, "why saul...why not David!" the answer i believe was his unwillingness to forgive this pastor.
the only difference in Saul and David was the heart of repentance. all have sinned...we should hold ministers to a high standard of holiness for the sake of the church. but they are still human still warring the same fight that paul faced in Romans chapter 7.
the real issue is when one repents does the pride of our heart dissallow us to forgive.
the great preacher Paul said it best..."when a brother is caught up in a fault you who are spiritual are to restore such a one in the spirit of meekness considering you're ownselves lest ye also be tempted."(paraphrased) |
| | 2006/11/14 22:55 | Profile | crsschk
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Joined: 2003/6/11
Posts: 9192
Santa Clara, CA
| | Re: | | Aaron ...
Quote:
"thankless anominity"
Recognizing the quotes, thankless no, not by any stretch of the imagination. What a tremendous accounting (for sheer lack of a more profound word) this all is. Thank you.
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Mike Balog
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| | 2006/11/15 0:28 | Profile | CJaKfOrEsT
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Joined: 2004/3/31
Posts: 901
Melbourne, Australia
| | Re: | | Quote:
crsschk wrote:
Aaron ...
Quote:
"thankless anominity"
Recognizing the quotes, thankless no...
Appreciate it Mike, but if your gonna quote me, quote me rightly...:-P
Quote:
..relative "thankless anominity"..
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Aaron Ireland
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| | 2006/11/15 1:38 | Profile | CJaKfOrEsT
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Joined: 2004/3/31
Posts: 901
Melbourne, Australia
| | Re: | | Quote:
Compton wrote:
One aspect of this 'scandal' that bears emphasizing is the isolation of the American saint. This is another way Ted Haggard symbolizes the church. Like most Christians he interacted momentarily and spurriously with other believers in very controlled programed environments. Just like natural families, American church familes come and go to and from the house at will, eating quickly, talking briefly, and rarely knowing one another. (Perhaps home fellowships are an exception...)
I can't remember the exact quote, but Bonhoeffer said something to the effect that the problem with the church is that nobody sins, meaning that because no one will "confess their faults, one to another", everybody things that they are the only ones who are bound in sin. There is a preaching compilation, that incorporates Paris Reidhead's preaching, called [url=https://www.sermonindex.net/modules/mydownloads/singlefile.php?lid=6567]Every body needs to do nursery[/url] where a lady says something to the effect of how she's tired of all these "great men" who leave out the blood, sweat and tears that were required of them to get to where they are, as if they just popped out of the clouds one day, ready to go.
Ever consider that the Apostle Paul would have been relatively unknown except by reputation amongst believers. He would never have advertised, and wasn't afraid to lower himself to the role of a lowly tent maker, after preaching that epic "Mars Hill" sermon. Today's preachers would have made sure the whole event was recorded and made sure everybody from Athens to Corinth had a copy, with a story attached as to how he "tricked" the epicurean and stoic philosophers to invite you to the Areopagus.
Not Paul, he resolved to know nothing amongst them but Christ and him crucified, speaking with great fear and trembling. Imagine someone like Billy Graham coming into town as such a pathetic specimen of grace.
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Aaron Ireland
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| | 2006/11/15 3:25 | Profile |
| | Re: | | Aaron... brother... what can I say. Thank you for your candid response. Your words made me think of areas of my life that are not as they should be. None of us have it all together, thats for sure. I think your post speaks volumns about all of us. The so-called "secret sin". Show me a Christian who doesnt have one, and I'll show you someone who has already gone home to be with Jesus.
God disciplines His children... I get disciplined quite frequently. Guess that means I'm in the family! Obviously you are too. Good to have a brother like you!
Krispy |
| | 2006/11/15 7:01 | | roadsign
Member
Joined: 2005/5/2
Posts: 3777
| | Re: The entire system is sick | | A blessed thread!
I have come to believe that the mighty dont fall alone. They have a host of enablers who play their role. I admit, in my own idolatrous desire for self-righteousness and people approval, I have inadvertently been part of the problem. Heres an example:
Some years ago, I was in charge of a worship service. The pulpit needed to be removed to make room for a youth drama. Of course, I believed that I needed the pastors permission to do so. However he was not available, being elsewhere praying for the service. Time was running out, and so I had his beloved sacred desk removed - without permission!
When the pastor got up to preach, he discovered a lowly music stand in front of him. He began his message by expressing his obvious discomfort, saying, Where did my pulpit go, I feel so exposed! Suddenly a flash of prophetic revelation hit me. I just knew that those words were loaded with deeper meaning. And sure enough within weeks the sky fell in, and he was shown the back door.
When later, I recalled that day, sitting there in the front pew feeling ashamed for being the apparent cause of his discomfort, it struck me: Why, I wasnt called to be his savior and absolve his sins by taking his shame onto myself!
That was the beginning of a long process of confession for me. I had been an enabler for years - guarding against the exposure of hidden sin in order to avoid the possibility of being blamed and accused of being a trouble maker. (Spiritual leaders who are hiding sin have an amazing way of deflecting shame onto those who may be aware that something is not right.)
I share this story to emphasize my belief that the big sexual sins are not the biggest problems, but merely symptoms of the ongoing outworkings within the entire system, including doctrine that is built on the Sandy Land. And as long as we unwittingly allow ourselves to be used to prop up a sick system, ignoring the pride within it, we are really keeping sinners away from the freeing and forgiving power of Christ. It is, in essence, anti-Christ.
That is the price we pay for wanting the security of religion, wanting its heroes, and wanting the approval and praises of those who pull the strings.
Diane
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Diane
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| | 2006/11/15 9:29 | Profile | searchin
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Joined: 2006/10/18
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u.s.a. /
| | Re: | | ANOTHER THOUGHT IS THE "MEN OF GOD" HE MUST HAVE ASSOCIATED WITH DAY IN AND DAY OUT...WHERE WAS THE DISCERNMENT IN THSES CHURCH LEADERS.
OR WERE THEY YES MEN POLITICALLY MOTIVATED |
| | 2006/11/15 12:44 | Profile | lovegrace
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Joined: 2006/8/12
Posts: 313
| | Re: | | Searchin, I think you comment was out of line and completly judgemental. Your trying to take the place of God and make perfect justice. God did what He did. Let it be. Move on and continue your life in an ever increasing worship to Him. |
| | 2006/11/15 18:22 | Profile | CJaKfOrEsT
Member
Joined: 2004/3/31
Posts: 901
Melbourne, Australia
| | Re: | | Quote:
searchin wrote:
ANOTHER THOUGHT IS THE "MEN OF GOD" HE MUST HAVE ASSOCIATED WITH DAY IN AND DAY OUT...WHERE WAS THE DISCERNMENT IN THSES CHURCH LEADERS.
OR WERE THEY YES MEN POLITICALLY MOTIVATED
Make friend with the Cross, searching. It's really what you are searching for.
PS - Typing in caps is universally recognised as YELLING on the interent. Can you keep it down, I have a headache;-).
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Aaron Ireland
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| | 2006/11/15 18:42 | Profile |
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